Unpopular Opinion: Cornering Does Not Belong


(Kincaid) #1

I have been playing Stick Arena on and off since 2008. On and off, so maybe like 5 or 6 years total of those. In all my days, I have never seen objectively worse gameplay than what happens when two people decide to take a corner. Cornering is the very thing that creates the slowest, most uninteresting, most slatematey, and most outright absolutely boring gameplay. Have you ever played XGen HQ? Every single game of XGen HQ consists of people just cornering forever, and only leaving a corner if they’re forced out from behind or know their opponent is 1 or 2 shots from death. This happens on every single map with ranged weapons on it.

See for yourself, with this intense, adrenaline-rushing 1v1 footage I captured myself just the other day on Sunnyville Trailerpark!
Stick%20Arena%20Cornering

Not only is cornering outright boring to a pathetic degree, cornering is the absolute antithesis to what Stick Arena promises and was built with in mind: fast, fun, aggressive gameplay. Not hyper-defensive camping until some dues ex machina comes along and breaks the stalemate. Getting back into Stick Arena is the most fun I’ve had in years, but only when people actually fight. When people cower and only leave their corner to scavenge a kill, Stick Arena becomes so loathsome, and as flat as the very stick figures within it.

Stick Arena’s gameplay should be a test of raw aim and and movement skill, not a test of patience; being able to attack from a position without having to expose yourself to returned fire is not only plain one-sided and nullifying of the skill of others, but it lowers the otherwise high skill ceiling of the game as well.

And to wrap up, the easiest and best way to fix cornering would be to add a check for a collision in the space between the player and the weapon hitbox. Cornering is possible because the hitbox of ranged weapons starts at the end of the gun, not at the player. Right now it does not matter to the game if there is a collision between the player and their weapon hitbox, it only matters that the hitbox does not collide with anything at its start. Add a collision check for the space between, and players will have to come out from their corner fully to fire.


#2

Cornering helps you build onto the staple skills of playing this game at a competitive level lol and the same players you see who are any good at it have probably mastered most other aspects of the game

If you want fast paced just rush


("Welcome to the Jungle" - William Bruce Rose, Jr.) #3

All strategies the gameplay allows are valid some result in less action. Good match ups can end in low scores because of the situation, maybe even no kills. It may be boring but it can win a game / tournament.

I have similar experiences with cornering, I’d rather have more action, unfortunatley stats reflect this.


(Kincaid) #4

Again, let me make it clear, I am NOT saying that people should be unable to play defensively and peek-fire from behind corners. I’m saying that people should NOT be able to hit someone from, again, complete safety without taking the risk of returned fire. It is objectively and undeniably unfair that I am able to kill someone and they are unable to hit me back because I am literally firing from the other side of a wall. Cornering involves no risk, but gives all reward.

To reiterate, if cornering were removed, and you were behind a corner and someone else was out in the open, you would STILL have the advantage of cover via good and skillful positioning; except now the situation would be much fairer because the person out in the open doesn’t instantly lose for not being behind cover, they could actually return fire rather than be helpless and run for the nearest corner to start doing the same thing their attacker is doing.


(Ajay) #5

Cornering for a whole game is the result of 2 scared players playing eachother. Cornering helped to make SA what it is today. If you’re stuck cornering, just rush. It’s just a game.


(Kincaid) #6

Cornering helping to make SA what it is today is exactly the problem. Cornering has made the game encourage slow and defensive gameplay using an objectively unfair no-risk tactic and only playing aggressively once somebody loses their patience or is weak enough to warrant an easy kill. In a two-tile-long hallway alone a cornerer can easily get 2 shots in with the Glock from behind the corner if you rush through. Rushing is risk/reward, cornering is no-risk/reward.

And yes, Stick Arena is a game. That is why it should be changed. Because it is a game and there are people with the power to change it.


(Lizbona) #7

Kincaid, I’m sure people appreciate the work you’ve been doing lately, but I don’t think the game should change because of you and you alone. Keep it an opinion.


(Kincaid) #8

I appreciate the politeness, but I guarantee you I am not the only person who feels this way. It is my opinion that cornering should be removed, but it is a fact that cornering is objectively unfair. Again, you are literally able to fire from the other side of a wall and kill somebody without ever exposing yourself or risking getting hit. Does that sound fair to anybody? Has anyone ever been fired upon from a corner and forced to run for cover without being able to attack back, and thought “that was completely fair”?

Playing defensively and peek-firing a corner to where you actually expose yourself to returned fire, even for just a brief moment through skilled precision movement, is fair. Being able to attack literally through a wall and at a person from complete safety is not.

If you are able to shoot someone, that someone should be able to shoot you.


(,.x.school3r.x.,) #9

The type of cornering that you are describing only works if you (the target) are on the opposite corner of the person doing the cornering. If you time it right, you can run to the corner across from them without taking any damage. Then they can’t shoot you from behind the wall because of the double-walled collision. If they try to run to the other corner, you can shoot them and they’ll take damage. This is the foundation of how gameplay works at the highest skill level. Like it or not, it is here to stay, and it definitely should not be changed after 13 years.


(Schall) #10

I’ve always thought that being able to properly perform and execute cornering was an art. It’s good defense.


(Kincaid) #11

@Schooler I’m not talking only about hallways as in this example. I’m talking about all maps, all corners, every single corner. There are many corners on many maps which allow you to shoot out onto wide open areas. I agree that being out in the open is bad positioning, but even so, a person in a bad position should still be able to retaliate against their attacker rather than get shut down instantly because “I’m behind a corner, you’re not, you can’t literally cannot hit me”.

@Schallmeister Good defense in a game should not be absolute defense. A person can stand motionless behind a corner, unmoving, in complete safety, and fire into an area without getting fired back at. If somebody wants to attack that person, he either has to come out (oftentimes walking right into somebody else’s little corner), or somebody has to go in, at which point, as if the cornerer didn’t already have the advantage of being able to fire through a wall, that somebody is now playing right into his game.

Again, if you are able to fire at someone, that someone should also be able to fire at you. There is no amount of rushing which makes being able to fire from utter safety fair. Cornering takes absolutely no risk, whereas rushing, the main tactic to dislodge a cornerer, takes inversely much risk. This is favoring of slow, defense-heavy gameplay.


(Schall) #12

Maybe it’s just me, but I still manage to get shot while I’m cornering.

I die a lot.


(,.x.school3r.x.,) #13

Yet the vast majority of those corners contain either an opposite corner, like the hallways in HQ, or the player is exposed on the other side of the corner allowing players to kill them from the other direction. You may die from the cornerer, but he will die too from someone else…


(Kincaid) #14

Yes, the XGen HQ hallways, though they are a prime example, I am not talking only about hallways, I am talking about all corners on all maps.

And of course a corner camper will die eventually, but only through his health slowly and gradually being chipped away (most likely by another cornerer) or somebody rushing into his trap. That fact that the cornerer dies eventually does not make the act any less unfair.


(Shad0ws / Jon) #15

Well, due to cornering having shaped the game to what it is today, we have strategies to combat such.

When it comes to two people cornering each other (not that I am saying people should literally do this the whole game, that’s just plain dumb), it’s who can corner the best that gets their hits in. Ace2Cool is someone who has been famous as not only a mod, but having very consistent cornering skill.

The ideal way to go about gameplay when two people are cornering, as almost EVERYONE does, is to see who can corner the best and injure their opponent, and then the person with the superior cornering skill rushes knowing that the other player has lower HP than them.

That’s why we have the term rush in the first place. And if you are known for being good at rushing, it means you have the skill to back it up. You know how to make a guy that’s cornering miss, come out of his corner slightly and get a shot in, get him to fall back and then corner him while he’s running using the corner he was just at. If anything, cornering leads to players who are masters at rushing. I think it’s less about changing the game, and adapting to the playing style.

Here’s an ideal example of how someone should have a good balance of rushing and cornering:

Yes, I uploaded a Natas video because he’s known for playing BG and rushing on BG. Speaking of which, MOST pros that 1v1 agree to play BG so they don’t sit around for 2 minutes cornering.


(Kincaid) #16

This is a good example of a method that people have of course invented to fight against cornering, but this is also in a closed 1v1 environment with two of the masters of the game who are competing directly against each other. Go into any game (an HQ game for this case) and there will certainly be people who are content with camping a corner for as long as they possibly can, because why should they ever leave? Nobody can hit them if they stay still behind the corner; people have to come to them.

My problems with cornering are that, in addition to my feeling that it’s fundamentally unfair, it creates stalemate situations in which one player has to play into the game of the other, who runs no risk in staying behind his corner. The mentality is “why risk going in when you can wait for the other player to come to you?” This goes beyond just 1v1s, as I’d argue corner stalemates are far more prevalent in larger matches, as there are more enemies taking corners and thus more areas that people want to avoid, lest they get instantly denied because they literally cannot hit the person on the other side of a wall. Cornering, in all capacities, slows down the game and encourages defense-heavy gameplay, only being aggressive opportunistically. If Stick Arena is in fact intended to be a defense-oriented game and not a fast-paced fragfest, then the marketing department has been screwing up for the past decade.


(Shad0ws / Jon) #17

Hell, when I play FFA XGen HQ, people are always trying to one up the guy who’s camping bat. Going down to pods and then coming back up through the BG to fake them out and rushing.

Also, being offensive opportunistically, to me, doesn’t really sound like a negative. That’s how most pvp, competitive games work. Waiting for the time to strike is actually a pretty redeeming quality, in my opinion. It means you have good timing.

I’ve seen people that aren’t the best players in the game, but they can work an FFA match and make it look easy because they don’t just run in all “fast-paced,” they hold their horses for 10 more seconds and then go after the two guys go at each other. And half the time, one of the people they kill is that dude camping a corner in the distance.

In all honesty, I think there’s too many variables to say that absolute defense is the deciding factor in a game. Some people have just been playing a long time and they know how to control their opponents. Nothing wrong with that. Because honestly, the guys that are camping corners, chances are, are better than you at aiming and dodging too.

It’s all about having a balance of skills.


(Kincaid) #18

I agree that not being 100% aggressive 24/7 and knowing when to play defense is good. What’s not good is that players playing defense can, I cannot stress this enough, shoot through a wall unto a player, and said player not be able to retaliate in the same instance. Is it fair under any circumstance, that a player can have a direct line of fire onto an enemy, and said enemy be unable to fire back, no matter how good or how skilled they are at the game? Doesn’t matter how good they are, if they get caught by someone who has a corner, they cannot return fire. I don’t get what seems so unfair about the simple rule of “if you can fire at them, they should be able to fire at you”, as opposed to “I can fire at you, you literally cannot hit me from here”.

I know removing cornering is a longshot, but I would love to at least SEE what the game plays like without it, where players have to actually expose themselves while playing defense and not just fire from behind a one-way, where more 1v1 engagements are decided around raw aim and movement skill rather than whoever poked out slightly too far from their corner and ate a bullet, where the game-deciding play isn’t decided by whoever moves first in a stalemate.

Firing around corners would still exist and cornering and rushing skills would still be valueable, just that each player would have to run an actual fair risk of taking fire when they fire themselves, instead of sitting risk-free behind a wall.


(Shad0ws / Jon) #19

I’ve rushed a lot of people who corner on the SG hallway in XGen HQ, and personally, it’s not that hard to hit them, you just need to time your shots (as Schall mentioned about himself earlier, lol). That’s why whenever you aim a guy who is using an AK-47, it can be really difficult to hit him or dodge him sometimes, because your timing is thrown off.

What I’m trying to say is this: unless they are REALLY trying not to be hit, you can time your shots and move diagonally to counter them while you rush. And when they are too cautious to risk that, they hardly even hit you on corners. Take in mind I’m saying this when someone is shooting at you from down a hall, which means they’re not shooting diagonally from a corner, but straight ahead. This is pretty much the type of system that you would like to implement into the game, as they are forced to go up-down/left-right while trying to hit you, not sitting there-- which is what makes them prone to taking hits in the first place.

So I don’t really understand why you are using hallways as an example, given it’s exactly the kind of risk you’re looking for when it comes to cornering. I figure the biggest issue is with when someone is shooting diagonally at you from a corner, where they can reach their arm across it and aren’t required to move in order to hit you. This does not leave them prone to being at risk of fire, as you said. But the catch with this diagonal cornering is that, in maps like XGen, there aren’t many diagonal angles a player can take advantage of without being only a tile or two away from their opponent. And areas like the bat, though there are slight diagonal cornering spots, can be turned into vertical or horizontal corners by the opponent literally shifting one tile over while rushing.

I agree with you that cornering is technically unfair when it comes to diagonal angles on an opponent, but their options aren’t just limited to “I need to run straight at this person cornering.” They line up against the wall to change the angle, then shift over when he pops out for a shot, and he gets shot as a result.

Strategy and timing fix these disadvantages all in all. And yeah, you did mention earlier that certain strategies exist to combat the fact that this form of cornering exists, but I believe it makes Stick Arena have it’s own unique form of combat, which all of us are familiar with.

Just saying, the people that are really good at this game, and are recognized to be, have no problem with cornering for a reason. They know how to play despite it.


(Ice) #20

When are all maps going to be exchanged for aim.acap