A question for the group

[RNE]

I was watching the Discovery Science Channel just now while taking a break from scribbling. The show was named “Destination Mars”, it got me to wondering.

Most of you are much younger than I, in your hands lies the future. It will be what you make it. We old goats built on what our old goats left us when we were young. And you will build on what we did.

The thought I pondered at length was this. How many of you look upward at the stars on a clear night and feel the burning desire to see what lies ‘Out There, Where the Big Ships Go’?

My generation gaped a blurry black and white television images as man set foot on the moon.

Will yours stare at crystal clear digitally transmitted images of a human’s first step on Mars? Or perhaps Io, Europa, Callisto?

Maybe the first ship that will travel faster than light!

It will not be a simple or easy journey, in all likelihood there will be more memorial plaques and flags flown at half staff before it is done. Walking the bleeding edge of technology and knowledge is dangerous, has been since the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens peeked over the rim of the Great Rift Valley. Will be for the foreseeable future.

So, tell me, do you?

For those who feel strongly that man’s first tottering steps into the next great frontier are a waste of time, wealth and resources. Spare me the rants, I’ve heard them all, and debunked almost anything you can come up with.

[Hex]

History repeats itself, that is obvious. Just as we look at the past and think the technology and life is crude, will those of the future do the same. We are destined to repeat ourselves, and, in fact, our lives mimic one of newtons laws.

"An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force."

Without a variable, we will continue to travel, and events will continue to unfold, but, no one can forsee the future correctly if there is to be a great "event".

Of course, we will eventually travel to many places, but, are they inhabitable?
In my lifetime, we may see the first human on mars, but it will be for fame, just as traveling to the moon. There is more to learn in the vast expanses of space than in our solar system alone, which is where our true destination lies.

[RNE]

Torrent; There is more to learn in the vast expanses of space than in our solar system alone, which is where our true destination lies.

This it true IMHO, but one must learn to walk before running. Inhabitable? No, Able to be lived on, yes.

Consider the Asteroid belt, many objects in the belt are highly concentrated lumps of minerals, from simple silicates to rare metals. Raw materials easily available. Consider many of the moons/free objects of the outer solar system, methane, hydrogen, complex carbon compounds.

And, even more importantly, we can learn, satisfy our eternal curiosity, feed the spirit of who and what we are.

[Sperry]

If the hunger for knowledge is eternal, you will want more than the bread crumbs. The knowledge which humans truely seek can never be attained, as the human race thrives on questions, and thinking answers. They wish to prove, though all they never will.

[JoeyG]

Knowledge is power. Not the kind of power that normal humans seem to value, which is being ditator, or president, or even simply having a larger salary then a coworker.

What knowledge brings us is the power to do great things. To explore the frontiers of space, to discover how our brains work, to exceed and surpass and extend all the possible limits of human capability.

To quote Sir Isaac Newton:

If I have seen farther than any of you, it is because I am standing on the shoulders of giants.

[denacioust]

0o... this is turning into quite an interesting topic, although I probably can't add to the discussion, I'll do my best.

Maybe we're not meant to know though what lies beyond the frontiers of what we call the universe, maybe thats why we don't, but then again maybe we are, maybe everything that happened so far happened for some reason, perhaps thats why our natural resources are finite, so that we would have some incentive to travel beyond the realms of what we call the earth and find a new place and settle down.

And about the habitability of other planets, I think is most definite, I sincerely doubt that if we were to travel for a million years that never would we find another lump of rock with the same, or better, living quality than Earth. I'm absolutely positive that someday we'll find something or someway to live somewhere else or we'll find life on other planets, maybe only micro-organisms, but life.

And maybe they won't be as technologically advanced as we expect them to be, maybe not even as advanced as us, who knows maybe we'll insult their inferior intelligence, we'll get in a fight and the world will end, but then again, maybe not!

If the past 100 years have been anything to go by then yes, we will make some incredible discovery soon, very soon! Some idea which will seem so incredibly brilliant and it'll work really simply, like a train that could fly in the sky without tracks! Well how would you go about describing a jumbo jet to a person from 1900?

[JoeyG]

I've always loved to think about how electronics work and what a person from 1900 would think of them. Even as I type this, I am almost fully aware of all the technology involved, from the CRT displaying this to the keyboard I'm typing this on to XGen's server which will recieve this post instantly from 5000 miles away as soon as I click 'Add Reply'.

Even with my knowledge of electronics, taking computers as a whole they appear almost magical, and yet are so simple in their base components. Asthe power flickered dangerously in the storm where I live an hour ago, I noted how much more, and yet how much less the weather affects us. Instead of drowning in floods or being struck by lightning our computers crash, and we are without light temporarily.

How important electricity is to our live, and people seem to think that they are smarter because of this. But oftentimes people can't use the technology, because of how complex or buggy it is. When you look at the people in their cars, idling motors in traffic, I wonder how many of them could be Thomas Edison, or Albert Einstien, or how many of them are even aware of how their cars work.

When I think about the greenhouse gases in the air and the constant pollution, I am reminded of how stupid we really are in the grand scheme of things. I think about how little these people have to do to reduce pollution, and how these measures would benefit them financially, economically, and socially, and I wonder why they don't do this.

Our world is run by a small group of amazingly smart people, who could change the world given a chance. I know many of these people from XGen, and I see their future in science magazines, when people like Paul Steinhardt are re-shaping our view of the universe. When I see this I have renewed hope in humanity, as well as the knowledge that I too belong to this group of smart people.

[RNE]

snowmanincave; If the hunger for knowledge is eternal, you will want more than the bread crumbs. The knowledge which humans truely seek can never be attained, as the human race thrives on questions, and thinking answers. They wish to prove, though all they never will.

That Sir; is the very crux of what makes us Human, Creativity, Curiosity, the need to know what and why. From a toddler peering into the mysteries of a new toy to Elder Scientists pondering the mysteries of the Universe. We seek the answers to questions, answers that may be far more complex and perplexing than the questions we asked. We poke about things we barely understand, sometimes to our sorrow, sometimes extending our understanding of life’s mysteries.


JoeyG; Knowledge is power. Not the kind of power that normal humans seem to value, which is being ditator, or president, or even simply having a larger salary then a coworker.

What knowledge brings us is the power to do great things. To explore the frontiers of space, to discover how our brains work, to exceed and surpass and extend all the possible limits of human capability.

To quote Sir Isaac Newton:

If I have seen farther than any of you, it is because I am standing on the shoulders of giants.

Exactly, Sir Newton understood well that discovering vast knowledge was not one man’s life work, but the work of many lifetimes. Each building on what those before had learned. It is said that a well known and renowned Scientific figure still asked for his books and notes on his death bed. He was quoted as saying “There is so little I know, and so much to learn, if I had ten lifetimes I would not know all that I wish too.”

Knowledge is power, what we do with that power is as important as the power itself.


denaciuost; If the past 100 years have been anything to go by then yes, we will make some incredible discovery soon, very soon! Some idea which will seem so incredibly brilliant and it'll work really simply, like a train that could fly in the sky without tracks! Well how would you go about describing a jumbo jet to a person from 1900?

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who cannot comprehend it.” R A Heinlien The pace has quickened greatly, and will quicken even more, the ‘compound return factor’


JoeyG; I've always loved to think about how electronics work and what a person from 1900 would think of them. Even as I type this, I am almost fully aware of all the technology involved, from the CRT displaying this to the keyboard I'm typing this on to XGen's server which will recieve this post instantly from 5000 miles away as soon as I click 'Add Reply'.

Which is more than a great number of people understand about how current technology works Joey. The basics of a great deal of what we use today, such as this medium, where discovered long ago, in some cases several centuries past. From the discovery of Electricity to a useful application of it in the late 1800's took 350 years. Now look around and see what the use of a single fundamental force of the universe does for us every second of every day.

Spider Robinson, in his “Callahan’s Bar" series of short stories said it much better that I can. (Paraphrasing) I was born to rumble and roar of piston engine propellor aircraft, now I listen the hypersonic scream of rockets.

Think how far we’ve come since I came into the world at mid-century last.

Now, consider what you will see.

"What do you see Sir Carnarvon ?"

"Wondrous things Mr Carter, wondrous things!"

[Hex]

My teacher always used to say to my class, "You are the future leaders of the world." This is indeed true, as one day, one of us may very well be president, or the person who discovers the cure for cancer, or anything else. But, it is only true if we make it. At the rate technological advancements are happening, we very well might find ourselves under the "rule" of machines. Now, i don't mean like the matrix, where humans are almost enslaved and killed, i mean that machines will control so much of our lives, that eventually, our society will begin to degenerate. Education will no longer be needed, and jobs could become totally unnecessary...

[denacioust]

But thats not necessarily a bad thing that'll remove the need for workers, and if we don't have workers then no-one will want to join the army because they won't need a job, this will reduce the amount of people travelling by cars so reducing the effects of the greenhouse and helping the planet (it'll probably be made worse by the fumes from the machines)

But the main problem with humans is that we know the extent of the damage which we are causing to the planet but we don't do anything about it and mostly our main problem is that we're running out of ways to keep polluting the earth rather than the actual pollution of the earth.

And yes, infact, we are the future leaders of the world, everyone is we don't all have significant roles in the leadership of earth but collectively we all do have some part to play, by electing the right president (i.e. not Bush) or by donating to a charity or just by walking to school rather than driving, we all help change the world...

[JoeyG]

I always walk to school. I try to do as little damage as possible to the earth.

I just completed a science report for school. Here are the two most important paragraphs:

General Motors is the first to enter the fuel cell scene, with its brand-new Hy-Wire car. This car uses electricity instead of mechanical parts to operate (aside from the engine) allowing greater fuel efficiency and virtually unlimited design possibilities. Also, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the known universe, meaning that fuel cells will be incredibly cheap once the technology matures. Hydrogen-powered cars also produce drinkable water as exhaust, as oppose to noxious fumes and greenhouse gases. The functional part of this car is an 11-inch thick skateboard-like chassis, which controls the entire car. The body can then be any shape whatsoever, with the wiring connected via a large socket in the center of the skateboard. This allows more attention to be paid to anesthetic appeal as opposed to functionality in newer cars. The technology is still new, and many problems exist. General Motors is working to fix these issues, and someday hydrogen-powered cars will become a reality4.
The other technology we can see rising is gas-electric hybrid cars. The main concept behind these is that the majority of gas is wasted in cities while starting, stopping, and idling. Engineers at Honda have decided that they would incorporate an electric engine into their new Civic Hybrid. The engine is turned over by an electric motor, meaning that the car will only use gas while cruising. Drivers can completely shut off their engines while at stop signs and crosswalks, and no gas is wasted. Also, new technology allows energy to be conserved while braking, allowing the battery to last a very long time. When powering the car, electricity is stored in a capacitor as opposed to the battery. This allows quicker charging and discharging times, decreasing the car’s response time. While not as efficient as fuel-cell cars, hybrids are cheaper and are available today5.

Perhaps people don't really know; people seem to care once they are convinced that problems are a reality. With technologies like these, driving may not be so bad in the future. Imagine that hybrids use 10% of the gas. That means that 40 billion people could all be driving and do just as much damage as we are today. Fuel cells, in the meanwhile produce drinkable water as exhaust.

I didn't mention ethanol in the report; I might add that in if I feel like it tomorrow.

The point is that new technologies are freeing us from our global environmental disaster. There is hope, thanks to scientists and engineers like us.

[Alexar]

Do you know what would be better than to send a human to Mars? Take a tree as well with a ventilation chamber for the tree to withstand the cold there, and turn all of the carbon-dioxide into oxygen, using hundreds of trees at a time, and continue building up the trees, so that oxygen will become more common in Mars making it possible for you guys to breathe first of all, and the oxygen is thicker (in atom size I dunno) so it can create an ozone layer creating clouds and the greenhouse effect so Mars becomes warmer and it can rain water to bring even more life to Mars. And if it does happen, then I should be famous for it because this was my idea of what you should do. I will answer any questions needed if someone asks of how you can transport the trees (once water is in mars bring algea which supports 90% of Earth's oxygen), and stuff like that :D

[noobpwner1]

what would the tree be planted in?

[ManUpstairs]

How many of you look upward at the stars on a clear night and feel the burning desire to see what lies ‘Out There, Where the Big Ships Go’?

You already know I do Richard(RNE).

Right now, I have to go, but when I get on tomorrow, I promise to read the entire topic and make a new reply.

-ManUpstairs

[Alexar]

Well it will be planted in the ship, once we get a big enough ship and sufficient fuel to lead it to Mars, and we would have to supply enough sunlight and and H2O to support it's life during the trip, but if we did it today the trip would last about 4-6 years.... So yeah that's alot of water and dirt we are taking about, and we'll have to come up with new rockets that can travel much faster so we can reach Mars faster, and oh yeah we also need some carbon dioxide for the tree, because that's what the tree lives on and trees breathe in carbon dioxide (what we breather out) and they breathe out oxygen (what we breathe in) and Mars supplies about 90% carbon dioxide in the planet, so a tree would be able to maintain life there if the soil was more fertile and it wasn't so cold, so we plant it on the ship with a temperature door to only put in the carbon dioxide and still maintain enough warmth for the tree to live.

[Hex]

Do you know what would be better than to send a human to Mars? Take a tree as well with a ventilation chamber for the tree to withstand the cold there, and turn all of the carbon-dioxide into oxygen, using hundreds of trees at a time, and continue building up the trees, so that oxygen will become more common in Mars making it possible for you guys to breathe first of all, and the oxygen is thicker (in atom size I dunno) so it can create an ozone layer creating clouds and the greenhouse effect so Mars becomes warmer and it can rain water to bring even more life to Mars. And if it does happen, then I should be famous for it because this was my idea of what you should do. I will answer any questions needed if someone asks of how you can transport the trees (once water is in mars bring algea which supports 90% of Earth's oxygen), and stuff like that :D


Terraforming, which is the proper name, would take many hundreds to possibly thousands of years. If you are interested in that though, i suggest reading Red Mars. So, terraforming a planet is really not possible, which is why we continue to look for a inhabitable planet.

[JoeyG]

I highly doubt that Mars is capable of handling a earth-like terrain.

Scientists now believe that Mars was once like earth. green and lush, but because of its low mass, it was unable to maintain its earthy attributes. Solar winds stripped off all vegetation and trees, and the only water (correct me if I'm wrong) is in the polar ice caps.

What we really need to do is move all the GHGs up, so as to lower the smog levels while increasing the ozone levels. That makes a surprisingly large amount of sense, and I'm quite surprised no one has suggested it here before.

Once again, technology is improving rapidly, and in a hundred years, perhaps this will just be a dark mark in history, like the Dark Ages. This whole catastrophe is a shining example of man's ability to recognize problems and fix them, no matter how big.

[RNE]

Alexar; Do you know what would be better than to send a human to Mars? Take a tree as well with a ventilation chamber for the tree

While that is a good idea, it won’t work. Trees could not survive the conditions on Mars. But you were close, very close. Don’t forget, in the winter time the equatorial surface temperature can fall to 100 degrees or more below zero Fahrenheit. The best you can hope for on a warm summer day is about 30-32 above zero. Let’s not talk about the poles, it gets cold enough to precipitate CO2 as snow. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
The answer is Algae, specifically a variant of a type that thrives in extreme cold and low O2, it is found in abundance in the Antarctic. A few millimeters below the surface in the ‘dry’ valleys. (Did you know that Antarctica is the driest continent on the planet?) It would have to be modded to enable survival on Mars, but that is a simple procedure.

The Mars orbiter has discovered what may be an entire ocean a few meters below the surface of Mars. With water, all bets are off, as recently as last fall I was a strong proponent of the “Dry Mars” faction on the Science and Tech forum I was moderating at the time. Had to use a lot of salt to eat the Crow I was served up with the rover reports of geologically recent water on and near the surface. With the presence of water that can be easily reached we can do so much more, produce Oxygen, make fuel, grow plants, take a shower, catch fish in? ;P.

Torrent; Terraforming, which is the proper name, would take many hundreds to possibly thousands of years. If you are interested in that though, i suggest reading Red Mars. So, terraforming a planet is really not possible, which is why we continue to look for a inhabitable planet.

Terraforming a planet as nearly earthlike as Mars is possible, with time and effort. Given the low gravity you would never have earth sea level atmosphere. But you could get breathable air, the cold would be a problem, even though it would rise significantly with a thicker atmosphere. Forget Venus, sulfuric acid atmosphere, surface temperatures of 900 degrees give or take a few, unpleasant summer vacation spot for sure.

JoeyG; I highly doubt that Mars is capable of handling a earth-like terrain.

Of course it isn’t, low gravity, solar irradiation and a host of other fundamental differences. But it can be made habitable by humans! And that is the center of the matter, habitability without extreme human genegeneering. And it’s possible, within your lifetime.

.Scientists now believe that Mars was once like earth. green and lush, but because of its low mass, it was unable to maintain its earthy attributes. Solar winds stripped off all vegetation and trees, and the only water (correct me if I'm wrong) is in the polar ice caps.

Solar winds stripped off the atmosphere, the rest went away from asphyxiation and freezing. It appears the polar caps contain significant amounts of CO2 snow. But as I mentioned earlier, the European Orbiter has sensed a high possibility of a vast sub-surface mass of water ice.

(And I still think we need to establish a permanent Lunar base first. Small steps folks, small steps. )

[theryman]

To inhabite Mars, the moon, venus, any planet that is solid, is years beyond our knowledge. Hoever, i think that the most efficient way to settle a planet it large domes. Terraforming would take too long, but we are going to run out of room here on earth soon.

Will people go? Of course they will go. It is like the settleing of America. People thought: there as to be something better for me out there. Will there be? Who knows. There may be prosperity, or anyone who leaves the eaths atmosphere peramantly may be doomed to die.

We will only know afterwards.

[JoeyG]

Solar winds stripped off the atmosphere, the rest went away from asphyxiation and freezing.

Sorry, I should have elaborated.

Because of Mars' small mass, it was unable to maintain a molten core. A volatile molten iron core is what allows a planet to maintain an electromagnetic field. Because of Mars' distance from the sun and low mass, the core cooled. A proper magnetic field will deflect the electrically charged solar winds from the sun, and once the core cooled, this was gone. So, a barrage of microscopic particles ravaged Mars' surface, stripping off the atmosphere, and killing all life. Now it is as it is now (what a sentence!).

Because of the constant barrage of solar wind, life cannot life on its own. So, humans could use their incredible technology to live, but we cannot earth-ize Mars.

Unless, of course, we created an incredibly large electrical field and began to deflect the solar winds again.

That was meant to be a two-sentence post; I got a little carried away it seems.

[RNE]

JoeyG; Because of Mars' small mass, it was unable to maintain a molten core.

And, it has no enormous moon to stir the core constantly via tidal effect. The Terran-Lunar partnership is quite extreme compared to the rest of our local system. It borders on a bi-planetary system.

The impact that formed the moon also stripped away immense quantities of water and melted the entire Proto-Earth's surface. Had the event not taken place the earth would be covered by an ocean three kilometers deeper than current sea level.