Do you believe in God/Any other higher power?

[OddLittleMan]

Do you believe in any higher powers?

Specify which you believe in and why please, or that you don't and why.

I have an open mind so feel free to challenge my lack-of-belief

(this is an update on my earlier poll that did not include any other higher powers)

ill post my in-depth beliefs (they're not clear-cut no) if someone asks me to

[Liokae]

I believe in "higher powers" simply as creatures actively living in more than the four dimensions we do.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

There is somthing out there, but what? I think that's what we all want to know.

[OddLittleMan]

technically they are not 'higher' powers - they may be in extra dimensions but are they in any way 'higher' or superior to us? and do they have any kind of influence over us? well even if they do you can't be sure can you?


anyway, WHY do you believe they exist? their may be no life in higher dimensions

EDIT: uhhhh... thanks for that atticus - it was soooooooo helpful

[Vagrant]

Ahhh yes, I am a Christian, but I suck at Evangelism, so I won't bother. I do believe there is a God, and a Trinity (the father, son, and Holy ghost [don't ask me to explain, he's god so you can't explain everything])

I aslo believe there is a devil too, and a hell.

[InsaneFootman]

as i said, i believe in god and in heaven


reason? you haven't witnessed any miracles yourself? not only that, i find that prayers help if you believe

let me name a few..wait no, why don't you visit http://www.javaforjesus.com/JCphenom.html?



anyway let me tell you a few accounts.


when i was younger, my great grandmother or something like that died in a car accident, a few weeks/days ( i don't know ) later she was resurrected by God and sent to our cousin's house. she was possessed by the holy spirit and wrote on paper a very very strange language that none of us understood

also, i've heard a story in my family that my grandmother used a stone with an image of Jesus on it...she would rub it on sick or injured people's backs and it helped in their recovery

just recently we also heard of an apparition of the Virgin Mary appearing in our area...so we went to check it out, and on the chimney of a house, there was a shadow ( from a nearby palm tree that they owned ) that really looked like the Virgin Mary...everything was in place...and, after we left, I heard that when they moved the leaves of the palm tree, the shadow was still there....

that's a few, wanna hear more? oh yeah, I go along with vagrant here....
very religious

[Liokae]

technically they are not 'higher' powers - they may be in extra dimensions but are they in any way 'higher' or superior to us? and do they have any kind of influence over us? well even if they do you can't be sure can you?


Are we in any way higher or superior to a two-dimensional creature? Of course we are. We can do things that are not simply impossible to a 2-D creature, we can do things that a 2-D creature is not capable of understanding, because they can be done in a dimension outside that which it operates in.

Or, in other words, yes. Beings that can operate in more dimensions than us are technically superior. Whether they are *morally* superior is up to debate; my guess is that they are either equal or worse than us for moral quality.

[Galaxia]

I'm very religious, too. My mom told me that my aunt used a piece of glass to heal people... She'd rub it on people's backs....

[Vagrant]

But can we effect them is what he is asking Liokae

I have heard of several odd incidents, some I do believe, some I don't

I recall a friend of mine at school saying his aunt recieved visions from God and that the apocalypse would start in 8 years (from 2002) I don't believe this, but who knows?

I have also heard of a language called "the language of angels" which footman is referring to.

I personally have never witnessed a miracle, but I'm sure I will someday.

[OddLittleMan]

to liokae: gd gd thats what i was looking for, you made a good point

to insane footman: i really doubt that, sorry but i just cant believe someone could be resurrected and not have the story all over the media all over the world, that just seems like a story, and nothing more. not that im saying your wrong, you obviously heard that from somebody else (unless u were an eyewitness in which case im intrigued an yes, could you tell me more?)


many 'miracles' or 'visions' are caused by various brain deformaties in the frontal lobe - ive read a lot into this


the piece of glass isn't anything to do with religion, it's a form of alternative medicine, my father went through a period of trying these things out and found from various sources that the right kind of glass or crystal can absorb certain energies (actually radiation is a better word)

sorry if i seem overly cynical (is that the right word) but thats just who i am and i welcome a good argument

does noone want to no my views? all you gotta do is ask:)

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Einstine said,"You take can everything in life as a miracle, or not" eh, somthing along those lines, But that's the decsion you make.

[OddLittleMan]

what?!?!

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

People talking about miracles. You Either believe in them or you don't. That's what I was trying to say. Make sense?

[Vagrant]

There is evidence supporting the bible.

Like when Sodom and Gommora (the immoral cities) were destroyed by fire from God. Well, excavationists when to the area they found very high levels of radiation.

[Dark Mistress]

Yes, I believe in God. I know one story about my grandma .. But if I told it, probably no one would believe me except InsaneFootman and Galaxia, sicne they know it already.

[Vagrant]

Well I would believe it, I don't think you lie

[Dark Mistress]

Aw. =)

[Vagrant]

ummm... odd moment. RUN AWAY!

[Dark Mistress]

Lmao.

[OddLittleMan]

i wouldn't think you lied about it, you said it yourself, it's a STORY - how do you know it's true?

[Vagrant]

Stories aren't always lies.

[OddLittleMan]

not always, but they can get exagerated and changed after retelling and there has been a lot of research - more than 90% of all reported religion-related miracules have a logical explaination once they have been cut down to the actual, true story

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

The events in the bible can be explained, well most of them. But there has never really been a full explanation of god, and how he came about.That's what I would like to know.

[OddLittleMan]

anyway, like atticus says, i just don't believe in miracules

im gonna share my views now

i believe in the soul, not any kind of traditional soul that is restricted to humans, can be reincarnated or damned for all eternity for doing something bad (commiting a 'sin'). i believe that the soul is an essense, possibly in some form of an as-of-yet undetectable form of energy. i also believe in a presence, a higher power (not to be confused with a higher being as this has no material form) that began the chain reaction that caused the creation of the universe (it caused the big bang) but did so from some kind of higher plain of existence (perhaps a higher dimension) i believe that when it created this universe it set rules and boundaries (physics) and set up the universe to take of itself, but did so when there was an empty space and now that the universe is here, it has no control over what we do - that is, it has no influence over this dimension now that there is something here because it is immaterial and unable to interact with a material world. But i think it observes, and remains as close to us as possible, observing it's creation, 'floating' (for want of a better word) in the space outside of the universe, all around it (a very simple way of describing this would be that it is like a bubble around our plain of existence) i believe that when we die, our souls, ALL our souls, join with this higher being, losing our inviduality and become IT.


so i believe in a higher power, but not really a 'god' - just an observer, with no influence on our lives or surroundings, and none of this 'religion' crap (excuse my French) that everyone else believes in - in fact, i believe (not meaning to offend anyone) that the Bible is a load of bull****



so what do you think about that? feel free challenge me on any points in my belief

[OddLittleMan]

there need not be an explanation of god if he doesnt exist - I don't believe in HIM

but wont be sure of anything god-related until science reaches the point when we can breach dimensions

EDIT: i know i double posted but i dont wanna damage my lovely, beautiful post... it's the longest and most deep one i've ever written on this board all by myself

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

I think that there is a higher being in all of us, but it's just when it shows it's unbelieveable.
I like to think of the bible as a story of coincidence,
if you ever watch the discovery channel they have things like Explaining the Bible, I saw one episode and it told about the 7 plagues or what ever, it defined and explained them all so perfectly but, they all were natural diasaters, and none of them were acts of god.

Any ways, The Bible is a series of events that are all just coincidental, and some people wrote about it, and it has just been stretched enough to be this holy thing.

[OddLittleMan]

back in 0AD, women that had sex before marriage were stoned to death, so, when she got knocked up, she got that carpenter bloke to marry her and say she was inpregnated by god to keep her from being killed...

EDIT: 'she' is the apparent 'virgin' Mary

i'd like to get 'stoned' to death, yep thats how i want to die

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

heh. I bet you would.

[Vagrant]

atticus think about this will you? if God created the universe, he can use natural disasters, like the great flood. Why do you think 7 plagues would happen one in a row? Did you ever think that because God created natural disasters, he used them?

the whole thing isin't coincidental. It's like marking an atom, throwing it into a pile 1 foot high of atoms the length of the US and sending a blind man in to find it.

What about all the prophecies about Jesus? Born of a virgin? That can't be coincidence. I think the carpenter guy would kind of notice she was pregnant and unmarried

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Yes, it can. It can be coincidental. And if you want to believe that god makes Natural Diasaters fine. Prophecies? How do we really know she was a virgin?

[OddLittleMan]

oh come one... a lot of the bible stories can be explained, some dont make any sense at all (adam and eve) and others can be proven wrong - the bible is thousnads of years old! ever played chinese whispers? well think what would happen to a story after a few centuries (or even millenia)


anyhow l8r folks im sighning off for tonight (it's late over here)

[Vagrant]

Simple, she would've been killed if she wasn't a virgin. Even that Joseph (the carpenter guy) wouldn't marry her if she was pregnant and unmarried and not a virgin, because he wouldn't want to get stoned himself.

Can you explain why Jesus was perfect?

For you info OLM, each bible transcript was copied word by word, each time looking back to the last word, and if they screwed up once, out goes the whole thing.

Now I will admit, in the translation to English, some of the meanings were lost like: "Thou shalt not kill" really meant "Thou shalt not murder".

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Can you? Oddlittleman is right, it's like Chinese whispers. I mean look at all these different versions of the bible. It's sad. Maybe if they were more precise I might have more respect for it

[Vagrant]

It's because of the translation to English, the context lost some of it's meaning because a few of the words were changed.

for example, try directly translating Japanese to English. That's what they did with Zero Wing (where ayb is from), and damn the grammar is bad

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

See, the language barriers mess it up and turn the story in a different direction

[Zeta_Riticuli]

no because i dont know what to believe in

[Vagrant]

See, the language barriers mess it up and turn the story in a different direction

It doesn't change the stories, it changes the meanings. For example: "Thou shalt not kill" should have really been "Thou shalt not murder". So instead of not killing at all it really means, you may only kill in self defense

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Yes it does change it around, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not murder. Please get with the program

[TOP HAT McBABS]

shmy shmy shmy moosik gewts meh, so gewd! cawnt towch dat!

Yeah, well, I've read here in there in the bible. My faith is with GOD!

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

That too.. lol

[kevinok]

i dont belive in god i dont belive in religen i do not belive in heaven or hell. The whole point of each of these things is control. That what the church does the want control and any one who thinks differently is excommunicated just for not thinking what this stupid bs says. So great minds have been hurt by religen and so many people have died because of it. Just look at the jews the holocaust, the crusades, the inquestion, and this whole damn ****ing bs in the middle east. Then there is god i do not like to think that i have no control in my life. God was created to explain the unknown. Then there is heaven and hell which doesnt work because because no person has never sinned. EVeryone sins. The reason these were created was to scary people into doing what the government wants. So the only perpose of god and religen is to control your life and take your money.

[Vagrant]

Than what happens after death?

[kevinok]

nothing happens after death. well maybe you become a ghost or maybe nothing happens or maybe you have another life

[Vagrant]

And so the evil can just keep getting away with what the did? that would be a sucky world to live in.

[kevinok]

religen is evil how many people have to die because of it

[Vagrant]

how is religion evil? Today you have the choice. I've attended church all my life and I didn't donate one cent. I've helped them with certain camps and stuff, but I've never paid a thing.

[kevinok]

okay how many people have been killed by religen vag

[Vagrant]

A lot, but that's including Jesus kevin

[kevinok]

well still thats people just getting killed because of a different god.

[Hand of the Castle]

Religion isn't evil per se. I believe that it was made on purpose to give hope. BUT, we all misunderstand it and pervert it as an excuse to butcher and take land. The crusades, etc. THey most likely just wanted Jerusalem for what wealth it could bring, but they added a religious twist to make it seem ritious and to gain support. Hitler made the Jewish religion look like a cult, he didn't use his religion, but he twisted another religion to make it look evil. That wasn't the only thing he did by the way, just incase someone was gonna say something about that... I can go on, but I think you guys get the point...

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Mr. Castle makes a great point. If we were there to see it all happen I think we would have a better knowing about this. It's just one of those endless battles, like are aliens real, or does the government hide secrets. They probbably never explained. Sad but true

[Vagrant]

the government is hiding secrets, that's a well known fact. Even some important Russian politicians have admitted seeing ufos.

Anyways, back to the matter at hand. If religion was just to give hope, why would they tell of an impending apocaylpse?

[kevinok]

because religen is a paradox

[Solean]

Vagrant: They are made to answer questions. And for fame and fortune, as well as a giant crowd of people who listen to your lies and read your books.

[OddLittleMan]

screw religion, people should have their own beliefs. kevin is right, religion is all about control - but not just in a material sense, it's about controlling thier beliefs and the way they think. the reason so many people believe in God is because belief in Him has been around so long, they don't want to think for themselves and come up with what they really think because believeing in God is what everyone does, it's almost traditional. if everyone thinks something, then it must be right, mustn't it? (the answer is, of course: no)


the bible is full of bs, prophesies? either someone could have written them after they had happened, saying they were made centuries ago, or someone could have written that they did happen, after uncovering the prophesies, just to support the God theory.

at this point i would like to say that the belief i stated earlier is my belief, allowing for the fact that there IS something greater and more powerful than the natural forces of this universe, i only thought about it in detail recently, within the last few months, and i am perfectly happy to except that their is nothing out there, and we only exist by random chance, and when we die, that's it, as that was what i have believed for most of my life. i think religions such as christianity and jewdaism (i don't remember if that is the actual name of the jewish faith) were made up because people wanted an explanation to the things they don't understand, and they wanted some consolidation when they thought about what would happen to them when they die because going on to nothing, just a blank void in your conscienceness at the end of your life, is a pretty damn depressing thought. i just hate those people that use the 'but that means life really sucks' excuse for religion, when has life NOT sucked?



and can someone tell me why Jesus is always portraid as some kind of white, christian, saint?

he was ASIAN, JEWISH, and a REVOLTOUNAIRY! (bad spelling i know) he was the greatest rebel of his time! i will never denie his existence as their is proof he was around and in fact, he was a very great man! he tried to stop the greed-corrupted ways of the church of that era! but because his mother claimed(key word: claimed) he was born of a virgin, with his father being god himself, he was made out to be some kind of missiah and stories were made up about him and put in the Bible to support his case! well, actually they were put in ancient, hebru texts, but you get what i mean, right?


i hate the church, and everything it stands for.

the only religion that i think, might just be right, even though i don't believe in it myself, is hinduism, because some of it's ideas about the universe have been confirmed as definite possibilities by the great man himself, Stephen Hawkins!

[OddLittleMan]

wow - another long post by me!

[Vagrant]

I won't bother arguing cause nobody's gonna listen, but I will say this.

I have an open mind Whatever happened to that huh?

[coder2000]

People believe what they choose to believe and won't change. I for one believe Jesus died for our sins and hope that others will believe as me but I don't force people to change. I would just try and make them see that what they believe is wrong.

[InsaneFootman]

tell me this. in the year 1998, mother teresa told everyone a prophecy, and sent a message to people like me who could not be there at the time. listen to her words, although they are not exact, remember, this was in '1998'

"The end of earth will come soon. God will soon judge the living and the dead. Those who will die in the twin towers will be resurrected, in white robes. The four horses, plague ( SARS, WEST NILE VIRUS ), war ( CAUSED WAR IN IRAQ, MANY TO COME ), death ( NATURAL ), and famine ( YES, PEOPLE WILL SOON STARVE ) will be there.
The revelation will occur, and God will come down to earth. Those who did not repent and sinned will not be able to enter the kingdom of the lord....Death will turn to hope and all believers of the lord will have hope"

Trust me, there's a lot more. That's only an excerpt. Now, do tell me how she knew about 9-11 when it was years before! And....the four horses are exactly right.

[Vagrant]

Hmmm.... I was thinking that would happen in 50 years, but never so soon.

[coder2000]

no one knows the end of the world but God. And the anti-christ will come before Christ. The believers will be taken and join Him in heaven. The anti-christ will bring war and death with him and he will decieve the world into thinking he is the returned Christ.

[InsaneFootman]

me too...i was kinda scared when i read the whole thing....

[OddLittleMan]

ours is a bleak existence

[InsaneFootman]

i'm not forcing you to believe, OddLittleMan, I'm just saying, you should believe the prophecy that i just told you, for that is not a lie.

btw i received the note before 9-11 occurred, but couldn't really understand where, how, and why it was happening

[OddLittleMan]

when did she send this message exactly? i had never heard of it before, and i think the media would make a hell of a story if mother theresa had predicted 9/11

and about the open mind thing... i do have one, it's just im not going to believe something just because you say, i believe this, or i heard that. if you can give me some reason for why you believe, other that references to prophecies ive never heard of, stories that can't be proven and the bible, which has on many accounts been proven wrong, then that will give me something to think about

[coder2000]

Give me proof that the bible has been proven wrong. Things I have been seeing lately make me think it couldn't be more right.

[InsaneFootman]

when did she send this message exactly? i had never heard of it before, and i think the media would make a hell of a story if mother theresa had predicted 9/11

hey i agree with you on that...
but many prophecies i've heard are never in the news
if the media did do so, it would be biased in the catholic, christian, or roman catholic religions...but remember that there are many cultures and nationalities in the U.S.


but about what we'll happen? we'll see...we'll see, i myself am still not sure

[OddLittleMan]

im not sure either, but im confident the christian interpretation of God is bs

[InsaneFootman]

Give me proof that the bible has been proven wrong. Things I have been seeing lately make me think it couldn't be more right.

i agree with you, my faith is in and always will be in God, and only Him

[coder2000]

Take the war in isreal for example. The bible says that Isreals enemies will attack and a seven year peace will be signed with the anti-christ. The end of the world could be closer than you think.

[InsaneFootman]

Take the war in isreal for example. The bible says that Isreals enemies will attack and a seven year peace will be signed with the anti-christ. The end of the world could be closer than you think.

just as the prophecies have predicted

[OddLittleMan]

just spend a little time searching for research into bible stories etc. and you'll find all the proof you need. i did.

coder2000 you seem to have read the bible several times, but can you explain why you feel your beliefs are the real deal, without mentioning any stories/the bible? can you just give me your reasons from the heart. wht it is that motivates (wrong word but i can't think of anything better) you into believing what you believe


im not trying to force anyone out of their faith, i never have done, and i never will. im just highly critical of illogical explanations.

[InsaneFootman]

well, that's reassuring

[coder2000]

Faith in Christ isn't something you can explain easily. There are times when I question if He exists myself but always seem to find that He has to. Asking someone why they believe is like asking what is stonehenge, sometimes it just can't be answered. What is illogical about believing in God? Many religons around the world are based on the same principals of christianity, and there are those that aren't.

[kevinok]

Give me proof that the bible has been proven wrong. Things I have been seeing lately make me think it couldn't be more right.

Okay I once took a class on the bible and we found many problems in it. Okay the only one I will say now is when Moses said I am the most modest person in the world. By saying that he lies because if you were modest you wouldn’t say you were the most modest person in the world. Okay well there’s another one about a king that I can’t remember now. But if you can find these contradictions you can dis prove the whole bible.

[Vagrant]

Where the hell does Moses say "I am the most modest person in the world." And kevinok, think for a second, that's what Moses said, not God.

[coder2000]

The bible is full of contradictions that doesn't mean its wrong. Many things in life contradict each other yet they are true, why is the bible any different?

[Vagrant]

And the contradictions are what ppl say, not what god says

[Hand of the Castle]

The bible sometimes is VERY contradictory, if God truly cares for his creations, he would not destroy them even if they sinned. Consider this, I have a pet cat who's very aggresive and bites me everytime I see him(or he sees me), I have the power to kill him, but I don't. I'm trying to spend time with him to make him do that less, if he's truly righteous, he wouldn't take the easy way out and kill us all if we sinned. He *could* just correct us in our errors. I mean, the flood, etc. that was somewhat unnecessary, killing everyone but a family and a load of animals. And if that actually happened, I find it very difficult to believe as if they were just one family and if they made children etc, because their genes are very similiar(or something along those lines, I don't remember the precise reason...) there would be deformities in their children. There's some overly long explanation that I've forgotten so don't ask... Although, who is to say what we are today as what we were then...

And coder, the bible is different because the religion is pretty much implying itself as being infallible. God's supposed to be infallible, he can't be wrong, or if he was, then the whole thing should be considered bs. Being contradictory, is in a way, being wrong, etc. etc.

[Vagrant]

Have you ever considered this? It's not just any normal cat, it's a cat with rabies that are incureable. It's not like you can tame certain ppl

[coder2000]

Castle, note I said that the bible is contradictory in areas. That is just the way it is. Some things just don't make sense, even right at the beginning when only Adam and Eve were around it makes mention of a city. How that city came into being no one knows but it still existed. Noah and his family did have to repooulate the earth and today that seems immoral but they did what had to be done.

[Hand of the Castle]

Actually it's a very normal cat and if it had rabies I wouldn't be here... And it can learn because we taught it to just sit on the table at dinner time instead of sniffing everything...

[OddLittleMan]

if God really was all powerful, he could change things to be better in an instant. he could easily enough change the very way a person thinks and behaves


EDIT: i never said faith in God was illogical, just the reasons for it that most people give

and wot castle said about repopulating the earth was right, it couldnt be done from one family because the deformities in their genes would be amplified from inbreeding so much that in less than 5 generations, what was left of human race would have so many defects that it would just die out. same with all the animals

[Hand of the Castle]

That is true, although I have to say one thing about that: Morale issues...

[Vagrant]

Well look, we don't know what is in God's head or why he even created us.

[Hand of the Castle]

Exactly, morale issues. That's one possible reason out of many others...

[OddLittleMan]

or if he created us

[coder2000]

I know God could change the world to be perfect and it was but He had given man choice and we chose to disobey and He accepted that. It is not easy going against human nature and being good which is why we need Him in order to get to Heaven.

[OddLittleMan]

the same thing applies to the adam and eve story.

that is definite bs. we came into being via evolution

[Hand of the Castle]

But a question pops up in my head as I read that, why do we *need* to go into heaven at all? I mean, sure it beats hell, but why do we *need* to go anywhere at all? And he did give man oppurtunities, etc. but we didn't have much of freedom until after the little snake incident...

[Vagrant]

Also... this is a weird concept, so don't insult me for it, He might be playing a sort of game to him, so instead of 'cheating' he's limiting himself.

The other thing why he doesn't fix everything is because we chose to be imperfect, and he respects that choice no matter how much he dislikes it, because if there wasn't a choice, nobody could truly love him.

[coder2000]

I don't think he is playing a game. And Castle we had all the freedom in world even before Eve was seduced by the snake. I think we are more limited now than we were before. I agree with Vagrant if we didn't have a choice we couldn't love the LORD could we?

[OddLittleMan]

if our lives were just a game to Him, then wouldnt that make him evil?

[Hand of the Castle]

True that, and when I first started thinking about life, etc. I did think that it was a game of chess between Satan and God so you're not alone... :mrgreen:

[OddLittleMan]

less and less people are loving him these days. atheism is growing in a big way

i only know one guy personnaly that still believes in God.


it's because people are finaly starting to wake up and make their own descisions rather than believing things because its what they have always believed - they're thinking more

[Vagrant]

He could still wipe out satan at any time, but he's not going to lie about the prophecies.

[Hand of the Castle]

If you think about it, if the apocalypse is to come, it would make sense to come now as we all are losing faith...

[coder2000]

Satan is already defeated. People may feel like pawns in a giant chess game but that is not what is happening. We don't know what is happening because we don't see the whole picture we can only see the past and the present.

[OddLittleMan]

who was it that said "Satan's greatest triumph was convincing man that he did not exist"?

that isn't all that relevant, but it's something to say isn't it?

[Vagrant]

Hey, OLM, remember the Great Flood? God did that because everyone except for one person became immoral. He saved that one person and his family out of all those other ppl.

[Hand of the Castle]

If he was the only one who was immoral, that's kind of odd saving his family just because they're his family. THe entire idea was to purge the impurities, by letting some by, it would defeat the entire purpose....

[Vagrant]

No, save the only moral one (sorry that was confusin wording_

[Hand of the Castle]

Oops, lol, I meant moral not immoral...

[Vagrant]

Well, he has to repopulate the world SOMEHOW.

[Hand of the Castle]

I know, but the entire point is the purging of impurities. If he's so infallible, he'd know that and he'd just make another woman for him to make children with.

[Vagrant]

Well, the guy was married already, so it would be against what god taught.

[OddLittleMan]

but he didnt? it wouldnt have worked! the ark and the adam & eve stories dont work! they are scientiffically impossible! we wouldnt even be here today if they had happened!
and i thought that noahs sons were immoral or something and god made them speak in tounges or sumthin? so he shouldnt hav saved his family

[Hand of the Castle]

And there's the whole gene similiarity deformity stuff.... If there were so few of them, they'd have to make children with family and the gene similiarity thing would kick in and deform them all... (the children)

[Vagrant]

scientifically impossible my ass. Lava is made of H2O2, so just take off one oxygen and you ge masses of water. There was also ice covering the entire planet (not touching but above) and it melted. adam & eve stories, they are very possible. There's a reason that there aren't mutant humans.

I don't know exactly who was saved, but it definitely was Noah and his wife.

[coder2000]

Creation is scientifically impossible which is why it is so hard for people to believe. God is all powerful so it wasn't hard for him to create the world.

[Hand of the Castle]

The flood is somewhat possible, I agree with that. But if there was an Eden, unless it was mobile, how would we get from there to Earth, and not find it? Unless of course it has a form of transportation... Or, if I recall correctly, God threw them out right? As in literally threw them out, if so, he has a good arm and Adam and Eve were superhumans then...

[coder2000]

Eden was located somewhere between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Over the many thousands of years it could have been absorbed back into the earth or hidden from site on endless jungles.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

" Lava is made of H2O2, so just take off one oxygen and you ge masses of water." So? How is it going to lose this extra oxygen atom?!.. hm?!~

[Hand of the Castle]

Eden was located somewhere between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Over the many thousands of years it could have been absorbed back into the earth or hidden from site on endless jungles.

True, that's possible, but surely, unless it was underground, it would have appeared somewhere. And the Jungles can't really hide a big garden, unless of course you take the perspective of the Jungle being the garden, which could be the case, but who knows?

[OddLittleMan]

i didnt say the flood wasnt possible!


but repopulation, or the original population of earth from adam and eve would have led to far too much imbreeding and the shere amount of genetic defects that would cause is so great there wouldn't be a human race!

[InsaneFootman]

.....

[coder2000]

You are missing one key factor in the population or repopulation of the globe from 2 people, God.

[OddLittleMan]

so, by that reckoning, either inbreeding shouldn't cause genetic defects because God has stopped it (which isn't the case), or it has started happening again because God has forsaken us

[InsaneFootman]

God HAS NOT forsaken us

[Hand of the Castle]

If you look at it at some perspective, you can think of it that God made inbreeding defects after the whole Ten commandments to prevent incest... Or something, I dunno...

[OddLittleMan]

and have you forgotten? noah brought 2 of every animal too! if that happened, then most of them would die out because the carnivores would eat the others and then starve so there would be nothing left. and what happened with the fish? why were they spared the tragedy of a huge flood?

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

I think the flood was Exagerated. Sure he made a boat but some pigs and horses on it and the rivers flooded, thats about it..

[Hand of the Castle]

You could also think of it that the animals we know today evolved afterwards...

[coder2000]

God didn't create defects to prevent incest. Defects wouldn't appear until the 4th or 5th generation anyway, by that time there would have been enough people that it would be possible for it to not occur.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Yeah, but what i want to know is were does it say Dinosaurs in the bible?! I don't remember them saying anything about it. I remember this one girl did not believe in the Darwin theory(Of how things evolve, the evolution of man and how we came from apes.) And she totally believe that god created us. It was sad :cry:

[Hand of the Castle]

Dinosaurs were teh devil? :lol: Sorry I just watched the Water Boy again, heh heh heh...

[OddLittleMan]

okay, the 4th or 5th generation defects makes sense, but noahs, children would get defects immediately because noah and hius wife would already have defects of their own

[coder2000]

The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs but I have a theory that they were created with the other animals but died before man was created.

[OddLittleMan]

so, they died in a couple of days then?

lol yeh, i REALLY believe that

[coder2000]

It says later though that 1000 years is as a day for God. That makes more sense.

[OddLittleMan]

not enough time for a species to die out...

sorry about that but your theory is flawed, the dinosaurs were around for millions of years

[coder2000]

I realize that and who's to say that they weren't around when man was created either?

[OddLittleMan]

they weren't because whatever killed them off, would have killed man off.


also, acrcheologists have dated fossils and areas they were found in and proven that there was a huge gap between dinos and man

[Vagrant]

not enough time for a species to die out...

sorry about that but your theory is flawed, the dinosaurs were around for millions of years

SAy that to the dodo

and about the fish and the great flood - hey genius, the fish loved it cause they had more room to swim around. That's why you find fish fossils in the highest of mountains


About the dinosaurs. To god, a day is like a million years.

[OddLittleMan]

the dodo was just one species, and it died out cause we killed it.


the dinosaurs were a whole series of species can you imagine all mammals dieing out in 1000 years? and coder2000 sounds like he knows the bible better than you and he said a day for God is only 1000 of our years.

[Vagrant]

Look man, for God a day is however long he wants it to be, whether it's 1 minute or 450000000 billion years.

[coder2000]

God exists in all time. and i said its like a 1000 years not that it actually was.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Vagrant why are you trying to save your losing battle, you don't know this for sure.

[kevinok]

well there are also a lot of gaps in the bible like in genieses. okay so kane killed abble and then how could one man create a race then it says kane knew is wife but then where did she come from because theres was only adam and eve and kane and if adam and eve are the only ones that have mated then kane would have had sex with his sister because no one eles could have created here

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Yeah, Alot of things need to be cleared up here.

[kevinok]

i so hate religen it's so controling

[Vagrant]

Dude, Adam and Eve didn't just have 2 children. all you hear about are the 2 children, in reality, there many. Yes, inbreeds, i know it's disgusting but it's tru

atticus, u don't know whether I know or don't know something

[kevinok]

well yet again another contradiction

[Hand of the Castle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there other humans mentioned in the bible? That were in earth, not eden. I thought I read somewhere about cities... Or was it that Cain founded them after leaving, or did he ever do that? Also, I seem to recall somewhere that it said Angels used to take women with the to the clouds... I haven't read the bible since my last RE lesson...

[kevinok]

well if they said anything about that then it was after that point in the bible im talking about

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

There was a lady before Eve. I forgot her name but she was sinful and full of lust. Ugh What was it, AH! Lillick or somthing, does anyone know what I'm talking about?! Vagrat, Yes I do, it shows on this topic smarty pants.

[Vagrant]

um... no it doesn't

i don't know about ur question hand

tell me atticus what Revelations 6:8 says without looking.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Ut Oh! I looked, I lose :cry: It doesn't matter. It has too many contradictions, it tells you half of the story one way then later on it fills you in that some of that wasnt all that true. tsk tsk tsk

[Vagrant]

When does it tell you something is false and is a lie? what the hell are u talking about?

[kevinok]

okay do you want another contradiction

[Vagrant]

shoot. I'll see if I can answer it properly

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

How many times have you read the bible? Like all the way through? Just wondering. And if so, did you understand all of it?

[Vagrant]

I haven't read all the way thru. But I've read all the most talked about stories. But don't ask me smallers things like: What's in psalms 130 without looking?

[kevinok]

okay so in the christan religen there is one god right vag

[Vagrant]

Yes, I see what you're leading to. The trinity right? That's always a difficult question.

[kevinok]

nope thats not my comment because the trinaty can be explained as as the body, mind, and soul

[Vagrant]

Ok, then what's the question.

Yes there is one god in the christian religion, just in case you didn't read the 'yes' on my last post.

[kevinok]

well go and read the first book of the bible and tell me how many gods you count. i've counted like 5 different gods. The way is that god is spell in diffrent ways meaning a different god. it is spelled as lord, Lord, The Lord, LORD, Adunie, and there are a few others.

[Vagrant]

Ummm... odd question. They all mean the same person. Lord, God, Jehovah, Adonai, King of Kings. They all refer to the same person, like titles and nicknames, sorta like the Devil is the prince of darkness, Lucifer, Satan, and so on.

[kevinok]

vag your wrong i once took a class on the bible so i know what im talking about. so im right and your wrong

[Vagrant]

I didn't even hear your opinion.

Kevinok, it was an atheist class. You expect an atheist to understand everything? Just because you took a class, doesn't mean it was right. I go to Sunday school, but it still doesn't make me right.

[kevinok]

it wasnt an atheist class vag

[Vagrant]

Than why would he be saying multiple gods?

Let me ask you this. If the government made you take a class on ufos, and explained to you how they didn't exist and they showed hoaxes, would they still be correct?

[kevinok]

no but this class was unbias and they proved it because the bible is made of differnt text things repeat in there vag

[Vagrant]

Sorry kevinok, I couldn't understand your fractured grammar, could u plz repeat?

[Namhet]

I dont beleive in god. I am atheist.

Next time you are in church, consider this.

The catholics have killed more people than any organization in the history of the world.

The spanish inquisition.

The rome/greece/whole europe thing.

And one that hits home with me, the war between northern and southern ireland.

So just think about that, catholics, when you call atheists devil worshippers, evil man killers, and satan incarnates.

[Vagrant]

I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian

[kevinok]

tehman you forgot the crusades

[Vagrant]

Yes... the crusades were stupid... definitely, especially them kids crusade.... that killed more than half the kids in the thing.... Catholics are idiots.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Religion, It's so misunderstood. Or it's Completely evil. :cry:

[kevinok]

dont forget the group that followed the duck around

[Vagrant]

followed the duck around? What?

[kevinok]

yea one group in the crusades though a duck was like there leader and they followed the duck around

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

hahaha, a duck!

[kevinok]

yea i know i was laughing for like 10 mins in class

[Vagrant]

geez.... lol, I didn't know that one.a duck is ridiculous

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

hahahaha, It just reminds me of the Monty Python and the Holy Grail. hahah "...A Duck!"

[InsaneFootman]

eh?

[Vagrant]

Great Gravy! Cider! Small Rocks! A DUCK!

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Hahahahaha, She turned me into a newt! Well I got betta. hahaha

[kevinok]

where do you think they got that idea

[Namhet]

Smoked a lot of ganja, probably. lol

[kevinok]

yea sounds like a plan to me

[kicker2003]

i believe in god because who created the big bang that started the universe

[kevinok]

that is sort of a contradiction

[Vagrant]

sort of, not totally, but sort of. Science says things happened a while back before humans did happen

[kevinok]

and the bible said they didnt

[Vagrant]

not necessarily. It just doesn't expand on the matter

[kevinok]

yea it does and god said let there be light

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

i believe in god because who created the big bang that started the universe

I have heard this on the discovery channel. Super Massive Black holes, Create and destroy Galaxies. So the big bang was the result of the Super Massive Black Hole. And Time has no beginning nor end. heh thought I would just add that.

[Vagrant]

and you could say that created the big bang (this is to kevinok)

[kevinok]

well what about the whole eveloution thing vag

[Vagrant]

Who says science is right about that? and if it is, then god somehow pulled it off.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Yeah, that's one thing the bible doesn't explain is evolution. Could this be the flaw?! lol hm

[Vagrant]

Ummm.... hello, it's still the 'theory' of evolution. Come on, science isn't right 100% of the time

[kevinok]

i mean if you look at life you can see that this has to be true

[Vagrant]

ehhh nooooo... give me proof then

I'm also thinking of this image.... but I'm just kidding around

http://sinfest.net/comics/sf20000517.gif

[kevinok]

lets look at dogs each species is a mutation and humans are the same way

[Vagrant]

they are variations, not mutations. A jack russell terrier can mate with a cocker spaniel, even tho that would be odd

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Dog's arent supposed to mate outside their own speices, Any animal for that matter.

[Vagrant]

So a jack russell terrier can't mate with a cocker spaniel?

[kevinok]

no that is common how do you think mutts are created

[Vagrant]

mutts? don't quite know what those are...

btw, kevin, did you see the above cartoon?

[kevinok]

mutts mix breads

[Vagrant]

oh, I see, but did u see the above comic?

nevermind, I'll put it again : http://sinfest.net/comics/sf20000517.gif

[kevinok]

yea that is almost funny

[Millions Knives]

lol that comic is funny

[OddLittleMan]

funny, but pointless.

why wouldn't the devil #####? it's his job.


anyway, there is this little chain of islands near Australia and on 7 of the islands there is an entirely different (they have extremely distinct differences) species of this weird, kangaroo type-things. (i don't know what the heel they're called)


a loooooooooooooooong time ago, the chain of islands was one island, but, the islands split up (they're right on a continental plate line or something) and because of sublte differences in the enviromnent on each of the new islands, new species arose.


get God to explain THAT.




evolution may be a theory still, but by theory standards, it is one of the best backed by proof.

have you ever read the blind watchmaker? brilliant book, and it explains evolution very well, aswell as giving evidence for it.


one of the main reasons that it is still called a theory, is because, technically, no amount of evidence could actually prove it, because religious peeps such as yourselves, keep saying that the evidence is just coincidental.

[coder2000]

Catholics are dead wrong about the christian religion. It is based on it but they aren't true chrisitians. They put Mary above Jesus which is not right.

[OddLittleMan]

christianity was based on catholicism which was based on jewdaism (or wotever its called).


so what makes christianity so right then? it's based on the same principals

[Vagrant]

OLM.... I really want you to earn a Darwin award soon.

Did you know Darwin was a religious man?

The difference in kangaroo's is only due to natural surroundings. If you were in Russia what would you do? Put something warm on. If you were in Death Valley, what would you do? Put something that would keep you cool. It's the same principle just that their genetic code changed slightly.

FYI, I do believe genetics is real.... also, did you know a fruit flies genetic composition is 95% similar to ours? It's especially tru with laywers (jk, but not about the fruit flly composition).

Evolution may be backed by proof, but can you really go back 50,000 years and check? It's also one of the more far-fetched ideas of science. The big bang is believable, that much is tru, but evolution? How can a sugar with that much information come out of a boiling murk? It's like putting a magnet to a video game, and hoping you get an entirely new, perfect game.

[OddLittleMan]

surroundings cant change genetic code. and yes i knew he was a religious man, but his ideas have been built on and he didn't think a lot of the christian ideas and bible stories were right - even though he was, at the core, a christian (or was it catholic, i forget).

surroundings dont change genetic code. genetic mutations, which prove to be useful, and cause the animal they are present in to rise to the top of its pack or sumthin like that and become alpha male and pass on the new and improved DNA on to the next generation, cause genetic changes.

thats why humans as we are now are unlikely to evolve naturally for a while, becausewe dont work in packs or nethin. but that wont stop scientists tampering with our gene pool

[Vagrant]

It's called adaptation, not mutation, like something radioactive. Adaptation is like putting on something warm for cold temperature.

The reason we aren't going to evolve naturally is because WE DON'T NEED TO. get that thru your head. We rule this planet, and we won't evolve naturally because there is no need.

[OddLittleMan]

nah, variotions in genetic material between one generation and another, other than things like slight size or colour differences, are called mutations. everyone just thinks mutation is the wrong word because of comic books and horror movies.


radiation doesnt even mutate things! with the exception of causing cancer, of course. but that isn't a mutaion of genetic code.


evolution for man, would simply be resistance to disease etc. or possibly telepathy and increased intelligence

[Vagrant]

Man isn't like norton antivirus, just waiting to be upgraded. There's a reason kids today still get chicken pox. telepathy maybe thru technology, but never evolution cause we aren't going to evolve. Increased intelligence? Maybe thru some miracle of science a pill is created but once again, WE ARE NOT GOING TO EVOLVE. If evolution is true, ppl evolve cause of need.

Let me explain. First let's start with survival of the fittest. That much is obvious. Natural Selection says those with a benefit over certain things are more likely to increase in number, and thus benefit the population. However, there are so many humans around today, that the effect will never take place except in the guys descendants. So humans will not evolve unless something starts killing us out. Which isn't very likely to happen.

I've had enough ranting for today...

[OddLittleMan]

im not saying it's gonna happen anytime soon, but think about it, over a long period of time, because people that are less strong, smart or whatever quality you can think of, are slightly less desireable, slowly, and i meen REALLY slowly, cos like you said there are a hell of a lot of us now, we are gonna evolve slightly. survival of the fittest still applies, but it's not about who survives just who gets laid.;)


and it doesnt matter if we dont NEED to evolve, we didnt NEED to evolve passed chimps because they live perfectly happy lives not caring about the future or money problems or anything like that. and your 'we dont need to evolve cos we're incharge of this planet' theory doesn't make sense, dinosaurs were in charge once, and i don't think you can argue that THEY were all that successful. (and yes i know they were probably wiped out by something outside of their control but thats besides the point)

[OddLittleMan]

im not saying it's gonna happen anytime soon, but think about it, over a long period of time, because people that are less strong, smart or whatever quality you can think of, are slightly less desireable, slowly, and i meen REALLY slowly, cos like you said there are a hell of a lot of us now, we are gonna evolve slightly. survival of the fittest still applies, but it's not about who survives just who gets laid.;)


and it doesnt matter if we dont NEED to evolve, we didnt NEED to evolve passed chimps because they live perfectly happy lives not caring about the future or money problems or anything like that. and your 'we dont need to evolve cos we're incharge of this planet' theory doesn't make sense, dinosaurs were in charge once, and i don't think you can argue that THEY were all that successful. (and yes i know they were probably wiped out by something outside of their control but thats besides the point)

oh yeh, and why would it be a miracle pill to increase intelligence? IQ is genetic and therefore, you can increase the future IQ of your child by tampering with them at the genetic level when they are still foetuses


EDIT: i clicked the button, hit stop and added some more - obviously a bad choice but, hey, everyone makes mistakes

[Vagrant]

Actually, we needed to surpass monkeys. Our ancestors eventually found out how to defeat large animals and they used the animals for meat, increasing the size of their brain... and so on. While the other monkey's were scaredy little craps and sat in their trees eating banana's while we got more intelligent

anyways, who gets laid thing, that is true, but it is called microevolution - evolution on a really small scale. I do believe that there is micro-evolution.

IQ is not totally genetic. I mean you can learn things right? Why not enhance that learning ability? but that's beside the point.

About the dinosaurs, that made me laugh. They were killed by something totally outside their control, an asteroid. They never needed to evolve. They couldn't stop that asteroid. I mean it's like "Oh great a nuke is coming this way and we don't have any Patriot missles." What can you do about it? Nothing. So they were perfectly fine where they were. Today however, we can stop an asteroid, so that's not a problem

[InsaneFootman]

stop using your brains and spam

but i agree with you guys
but vagrant, the dinosaurs could've escaped! they could have piled 5000000000 rocks on a a male and female dinosaur, and then, when the asteroid hit....forget it i'm making no sense


but anyway, what if, in the future, a giant asteroid comes and takes our lives? what then? even 100's of patriot missiles aren't gonna stop a 500000000000 mile asteroid ( it's not gonna be that big )

*EDIT* removed a long lecture

[Vagrant]

Dude, that's the size of a planet

[Dark Mistress]

stop using your brains and spam

but i agree with you guys
but vagrant, the dinosaurs could've escaped! they could have piled 5000000000 rocks on a a male and female dinosaur, and then, when the asteroid hit....forget it i'm making no sense


but anyway, what if, in the future, a giant asteroid comes and takes our lives? what then? even 100's of patriot missiles aren't gonna stop a 500000000000 mile asteroid ( it's not gonna be that big )

*EDIT* removed a long lecture

Rofl. Sometimes you truly scare me, Insane.

[InsaneFootman]

stop using your brains and spam

but i agree with you guys
but vagrant, the dinosaurs could've escaped! they could have piled 5000000000 rocks on a a male and female dinosaur, and then, when the asteroid hit....forget it i'm making no sense


but anyway, what if, in the future, a giant asteroid comes and takes our lives? what then? even 100's of patriot missiles aren't gonna stop a 500000000000 mile asteroid ( it's not gonna be that big )

*EDIT* removed a long lecture

Rofl. Sometimes you truly scare me, Insane.

that is why i am insanefootman

[Dark Mistress]

.. Hm. You have a point, there.

[InsaneFootman]

yup

[Vagrant]

that was pretty funny though... The asteroid is like the size of mercury, geez

[OddLittleMan]

actually, your intelligence IS genetic. intelligence includes how fast you learn, how quick you think and how well you understand things. WHAT you learn depends on situation and is different. i like footman's idea :D

what i meant is we didn't NEED to develop intelligent thought, we could have just got really big and strong and eaten everything else;)

[Vagrant]

Dude, meat gave u s bigger brains, giving us thought.... Hey OLM, think for a second. If that's what inteligence is, then it's for certain u could increase it non-genetically.

You can increase your thought reflexes naturally, enhance your learning capability with a pill, and with that comes understanding of things.

[OddLittleMan]

you could increase these things to certain extent but your genetic code would give you limitatios and a pill (if you could make one with the right effects) would not permanently improve anything to do with your intelligence

[OddLittleMan]

meat only allowed us to grow bigger brains through evolution... it's just that the possibility of bigger brains wasn't there until we started eating meat.

we didn't need it but it happened.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Robbo I'm with you 100%. Vagrant some of the things you say are idiotic. The Dinosaurs didn't need to evovle? What about the discovery about the dinosaur that had a feather like structure? They didn't need to evolve my ass. You will always evolve, you can't stop it Vag. It just doesnt happen over night.

[Hand of the Castle]

It happens to happen over millions of years... Then men will fly! :D

[sweetpea1673]

i DO believe in a higher power. I have had many times in my life that I have searched for answers to situations that I couldnt find a way out of. And I WAS answered. I have had family that should have died with non hodgkins lymphoma and we all prayed for months and he is healed.

and i prayed to God to let me find the right person to love. HE DID! and he knows who he is

All of you should think of this. God answers ALL prayers, sometimes just not the way YOU want. This is HIS time and HIS will

[OddLittleMan]

thats a touching story, but it could still be coincidental

[coder2000]

Nothing is coincidence if you pray about it. and christianity isn't based on catholicsm its based on judaism like catholicsm. judaism is flawed as well as they don't use the whole bible.

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Praying is somewhat talking to your self, it probbly does good for stress relief like in sweatpeas case (I'm glad he's healed). Meditation is awhole different story though and thats what I'm kinda into.

[kevinok]

It's called adaptation, not mutation, like something radioactive. Adaptation is like putting on something warm for cold temperature.

The reason we aren't going to evolve naturally is because WE DON'T NEED TO. get that thru your head. We rule this planet, and we won't evolve naturally because there is no need.

vag adaptaion is caused by mutation. also what makes you think thats your religien is right

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

Thank you kevinok!lol

[Vagrant]

Hey kevinok. If I was suppoesed to explain that to you again, this whole topic would start over.

Do any of you fools completely understand Darwin's theory of evolution? My god, if it's that many ppl, I'm surprised I know it that well.

[kevinok]

vag i do understand it and well it seems you dont. have you ever read his book vag i have

[Vagrant]

I wasn't talking about you understanding it, you never mentioned darwin's theory, so I still have yet to see if you understand it. I meant for OLM and atticus

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

What ever we believe in, Somthing is gonna happen when we die, we may expect it or we may not but hey, Lets just live. lol

[Vagrant]

True dat... live life to the fullest extent... just not in jail

[Hand of the Castle]

Yes, we will find out who's right and who's wrong... though either way, imo, every belief is valid...

[ToKillAnATTICUS]

yeah, what ever happens, happens

[OddLittleMan]

hmmm... fair enough, i think thats a good end to this topic.


oh yeah, and i do understand darwin's theory, and the more complex theories based on it - VERY well. i did a project on it about 3 months back and got an A++ :). plus, i read about 6 books on it too.

[The First]

Cool nice grade

[OddLittleMan]

thx - i earned it. so vag, don't go telling me i dont know what im talking about cause i never bs. (well, not quite never but you get the point)

[sweetpea1673]

hey tech....

why is it most people accept Christ as they are ready to die? Seems strange to me that people live their life as if they dont need God and then "Please God save me" I dont judge just ask.

[kevinok]

because that is how this world is

[sweetpea1673]

i completely agree with you. and its the REAL athiests that jump faster than anyone. Also you can be a witch or not believe in the Christian religion and NOT believe in the devil...JUST to let you know