Church Age

[MercuryLime]

At what age do you think children should have the choice of whether or not to attend church with their parents? Should they always have the choice? Have the choice once they're 10? 14? 18? Until they leave their parents' house?

[Anonymous]

13-14. By then its not a matter of "Church is bowing! I dun wanna go!", must of the time.

[Sperry]

If a child does not want to attend church; they will find a way around it. Homework, sickness, sleep and so on- it's not that hard to busy oneself on a Sunday morning. If, come a certain time, they choose to return or begin attending again, they will. You *can* force them, but it doesn't usually work.

[c00lryguy]

There should be a 21 option as they serve wine at churches, thereby currupting the kids of America, and the world.

[vulcanus_1313]

Religion should not be forced on anyone. If a child dosen't want to go to church and the parents make the child go, this makes the child think that church is good. The parents, regardless of there personal beliefs, should expose the child to many different religions and philosyphies. My personal belief is that reliogen is stupid, I follow no religion, but I don't try to inforce this belief on anyone, and I don't think parents should force there beliefs on the child.

[Marty]

They shouldn't be forced to go to a religion. I barly go to the church, and you don't need to. God hears you where ever you are. You don't need to go to a church to speak to him.

[Bodadem]

I think it's disgusting that some people belong to a religion simply because they were raised that way and forced to attend church (I've been told by some people that that is why they belong to a religion) and they just know no other way, so that religion is their only real option.

[Marty]

Yes in most places thats true.

[denacioust]

In some places? I'd thats the case in all places. I really doubt parents just raise their kids saying hey, you can follow the Barney religion if you want, I don't care.

[Marty]

No, in some places they get the childern to believe in what they want- not all but most, so I swicthed it.

[Kevim]

Never. A child should never be forced by anyone or thing to make a decision that great. They have to figure it out themselves. I am very happy my mom doesn't make me go to Church, or else I might not have found my true faith.

[denacioust]

Which is?

By the way, young children can't decide for themselves which religion to follow. Religions shouldn't be followed, why did God create us if all he wants us to do is worship him? It sounds a bit arrogant.

[Impulse]

The only logical answers to this question are 'always' and 'never' because there is no set age at which a child (or adult) can make a conscious decision on this issue.

I'm a reborn atheist. No one is born following a certain religion--they are influenced at an early age if anything.

[Kevim]

I used to be atheist. But after some research I chose the Buddhist faith. It allows you to believe in other religons, other then your own. It teaches you about Karma, and how to find true inner-peace and happieness. I really don't care what religon you have dedicated yourself to, you really should try to look in to Buddhism.

Also, religons should be followed. Most religons teach good lessons and values, that should be followed. And even if religons are "fake" almost all of them revolve around "Do good things, get good things, do bad things, get bad things" in other words, karma. Which I believe to be completly real.

[Bodadem]

You can't prove that, Impulse. We could be genetically programmed to either believe in a greater power or not.. Past that, though, it's mostly cultural.. Certain schools of religions tend to be more location-specific.. Some people also do extensive research when they mature somewhat, to actually figure out which religion most closely meshes with their beliefs.. I guess it's some perverted need to classify ones self that would drive them to do that, but some people do..

[MercuryLime]

The only logical answers to this question are 'always' and 'never' because there is no set age at which a child (or adult) can make a conscious decision on this issue.

I was born and raised christian by my parents. For some reason or another, I always slightly resisted church and christianity. A couple years ago, I decided I no longer believed in christianity. I think a portion of my motives were because my father forced me to attend SOR classes (school of religion) sunday evenings every year for several years (before that, I was in a catholic school until 5th grade). My parents both have what seems to me as a blind faith in christianity. I basically became an athiest. I'm now 15, and my parents have forced me to attend church every Sunday - and still do. They don't force me to pray, sing, or go to communion, but they still make me come with them.

They think there's still a chance for me to "come around", and will continue forcing me to go until I'm 18 (and although I can escape it once in a great while, I don't want this to turn into a fight with my parents) I no longer "get" anything out of mass, so I don't want to go anymore.

@Impulse: Say you're christian and you have a son who doesn't want to go to church. My question is basically asking at what age you'd stop making him go.

[theryman]

Children should go to church until they realize that pouting won't get them oyut of it, and form some reasonable excuse, like, "I got homework" or "My dog died."

[Impulse]

@Impulse: Say you're christian and you have a son who doesn't want to go to church. My question is basically asking at what age you'd stop making him go.
If he isn't willing to take in what is being said at church, then I suppose that the whole thought of making him go is pointless. I don't find it fair that I would be trying to make him a Christian whereas no one would be trying to make him an atheist (or a religion other than Christianity).

[AssaultRifle]

If you want to get technical about it, Christians are suppose to go to church and like it. It is not suppose to be a gruling task but a place for worship and celebration. As a Christian, you should want to go to church, not think that you have to go.

I wish I practiced what I preach...

[Logster]

Well, let me put in my 2 cents here:
My dad is a catholic but my mom doesn't agree with everything they believe so my and my bro didn't have to go. (rymeme) I personaly believe that I won't be condememd to hell because I only believe in God and help others while being an overall good person.

[Kevim]

If you want to get technical about it, Christians are suppose to go to church and like it. It is not suppose to be a gruling task but a place for worship and celebration. As a Christian, you should want to go to church, not think that you have to go.

I wish I practiced what I preach...

That's why I think all "white" churches should be torn down. Black churches are so much better, it's like a concert..., about Jesus! How can anything get any better then that?

[Tac_Taf04]

I think if you want to be religious that is your choice and give the kid a choice when he knows what religion is what insted of brainwashing them when they don't know anything about the church or religion.

[Hijacker27]

I say you should stop forcing the kid to go to church when they say they dont want to go to church.

[Teh~GD]

I personally have some problems with christianity, and all religon. First and foremost, they think that God will only let christians into heaven. I believe that if there was a heaven. God would judge people on the way they live their life, not on what religon they practice. Second, they won't accept evolution. There is proof in all of life. Look at snakes. They have bones in their body that resemble legs. And look at us. Our fetuses look very much alike. Our appendix is an organ we do not use, but we have it. Other creatures have it, and use it. Isn't it more fantastic that God created creatures that adapt to their enviroment?

Christians, like other religons, attack many people that aren't them. Other people of different religons and people who disagree with their religon are chastized. And women and homosexuals and native americans have all been heavily attacked by them. Women couldn't vote till a few years ago, as native americans. Alaskan natives were hurt by missionarys. They were hit if they spoke their native tongue, and were told to get rid of their culture and adopt the christian culture.

My view on theology is 1. that God created us. 2. There is not a heaven or hell. Heaven was created by christians to encourage people to join their religon, and hell was created to scare people into joining. 3. No religon is right. When it comes down to it, I believe in one part of the bible. I use it in all parts of my life. I use the Golden Rule: treat others as you would like people to treat you. That really covers everything. Please do not flame me, these are my opinions. And if you have something to say, put some thought before posting. Don't just say "Oh you are going to hell for blasphamy (sic)"

[Logster]

why does it always seem like people ignore my posts in every single forum? Really, does everybody get together and say: hey let's all ignore Logster's posts!

Anyways believe what you want, we'll see how it goes after we die.

[Kevim]

I personally have some problems with christianity, and all religon. First and foremost, they think that God will only let christians into heaven. I believe that if there was a heaven. God would judge people on the way they live their life, not on what religon they practice. Second, they won't accept evolution. There is proof in all of life. Look at snakes. They have bones in their body that resemble legs. And look at us. Our fetuses look very much alike. Our appendix is an organ we do not use, but we have it. Other creatures have it, and use it. Isn't it more fantastic that God created creatures that adapt to their enviroment?

Christians, like other religons, attack many people that aren't them. Other people of different religons and people who disagree with their religon are chastized. And women and homosexuals and native americans have all been heavily attacked by them. Women couldn't vote till a few years ago, as native americans. Alaskan natives were hurt by missionarys. They were hit if they spoke their native tongue, and were told to get rid of their culture and adopt the christian culture.

My view on theology is 1. that God created us. 2. There is not a heaven or hell. Heaven was created by christians to encourage people to join their religon, and hell was created to scare people into joining. 3. No religon is right. When it comes down to it, I believe in one part of the bible. I use it in all parts of my life. I use the Golden Rule: treat others as you would like people to treat you. That really covers everything. Please do not flame me, these are my opinions. And if you have something to say, put some thought before posting. Don't just say "Oh you are going to hell for blasphamy (sic)"

Very nice post, but I do have to state something.

Buddhism, actually encourages people to follow other religons, as long as they all revolve around peace, harmony, and all-around goodness. Basically all major religons known to date.

Go The Buddah!

[Hijacker27]

I personally have some problems with christianity, and all religon. First and foremost, they think that God will only let christians into heaven. I believe that if there was a heaven. God would judge people on the way they live their life, not on what religon they practice. Second, they won't accept evolution. There is proof in all of life. Look at snakes. They have bones in their body that resemble legs. And look at us. Our fetuses look very much alike. Our appendix is an organ we do not use, but we have it. Other creatures have it, and use it. Isn't it more fantastic that God created creatures that adapt to their enviroment?

Christians, like other religons, attack many people that aren't them. Other people of different religons and people who disagree with their religon are chastized. And women and homosexuals and native americans have all been heavily attacked by them. Women couldn't vote till a few years ago, as native americans. Alaskan natives were hurt by missionarys. They were hit if they spoke their native tongue, and were told to get rid of their culture and adopt the christian culture.

My view on theology is 1. that God created us. 2. There is not a heaven or hell. Heaven was created by christians to encourage people to join their religon, and hell was created to scare people into joining. 3. No religon is right. When it comes down to it, I believe in one part of the bible. I use it in all parts of my life. I use the Golden Rule: treat others as you would like people to treat you. That really covers everything. Please do not flame me, these are my opinions. And if you have something to say, put some thought before posting. Don't just say "Oh you are going to hell for blasphamy (sic)"


Nicely done, and I have to agree, but not all christianity is as bad as you make it out to be. Only catholics and Jehova's Witness are like that, and many other strains of christianity believe many other things. Please don't base all of christianity on 1 or 2, though major, sections of it.

[ripht|CoC]

If Christians want to improve their image five thousand percent, they need to publically state that Pat Robertson, Bill O'Reilly, and anyone else at all related to Fox "News" are in no way officially affiliated with the Church... In fact, kick them out entirely.

Those guys are freaking killing your image.



Anyway, my girlfriend and I plan to take our children to church EVERY week... but it will be a different church (and a different religion) each week. Choosing to follow ("or not follow," I say pointedly to some of the people in this thread) a religion just because you were raised in it is just sloppy decision making. Our children will be raised to respect and understand all religions, and we'll respect them and their choices... within reason. xP

I'm VERY tired of the trend in America to allow children to "raise themselves" more or less, and to treat children as if their opinions are equal to that of adults. If children do not have discipline in their lives, then they become little more than animals. Too much discipline is just as bad. Balance in all things.


I chose "People should always have the choice of whether or not to attend church, regardless of their age!" because in this instance, it's the most correct. However, I'd like to add a condition: People should always have the choice of whether or not to attend church regardless of their age, however NOT regardless of intelligence, maturity, and the ability to make an informed decision.

If you decide that you don't want to go to church because you'd rather be home playing video games, then that is positive proof that you aren't mature enough to make the decision for yourself.

[Doug05257]

I personally have some problems with christianity, and all religon. First and foremost, they think that God will only let christians into heaven. I believe that if there was a heaven. God would judge people on the way they live their life, not on what religon they practice. Guess what, Sherlock! Your religion is your way of life. Of course, there are always those who simply say that they are this or that they are that, but what they really believe is what their life is based on. Your beliefs influence just about everything that you do in your life, and each and every major decision in your life is influenced by it. It is one and the same.

Second, they won't accept evolution. There is proof in all of life. Look at snakes. They have bones in their body that resemble legs. And look at us. Our fetuses look very much alike. Our appendix is an organ we do not use, but we have it. Other creatures have it, and use it. Isn't it more fantastic that God created creatures that adapt to their enviroment?
Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution. link (http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp)
Stop listening to what your retarded 7th grade science teacher tells you about religion.
Christians, like other religons, attack many people that aren't them. Other people of different religons and people who disagree with their religon are chastized. And women and homosexuals and native americans have all been heavily attacked by them. Women couldn't vote till a few years ago, as native americans. Alaskan natives were hurt by missionarys. They were hit if they spoke their native tongue, and were told to get rid of their culture and adopt the christian culture.
Yeah? No ####, Watson. It's human nature to discriminate against those who are not like you. Incorrect behavior, yes. But then, doesn't that tie back into the old Adam and Eve story with man now being 'inherently evil'? Hmm?

My view on theology is 1. that God created us. 2. There is not a heaven or hell. Heaven was created by christians to encourage people to join their religon, and hell was created to scare people into joining. 3. No religon is right. When it comes down to it, I believe in one part of the bible. I use it in all parts of my life. I use the Golden Rule: treat others as you would like people to treat you. That really covers everything. Please do not flame me, these are my opinions. And if you have something to say, put some thought before posting. Don't just say "Oh you are going to hell for blasphamy (sic)"
You're going to hell for blasphemy. Twice.

No religion is right, eh? No one is right? What makes you think that you, out of all the people in the world, are right?

I'll damn well bet that your answer is the same as everyone else's - faith.

So what makes your faith better than everyone else's faith? Truth?

Okay then. Prove it.



And on a side note... saying "OMG PLEEEEEZE DUN'T FLAMMMMEZ MEH" isn't going to stop anyone but Jesus Christ himself from flaming you. :)




And as for my opinion on the matter: You're a minor until you achieve the age of 18 - and you'll do damn well anything that your superior tells you to until that point in time.

[ripht|CoC]

Guess what, Sherlock! Your religion is your way of life. Of course, there are always those who simply say that they are this or that they are that, but what they really believe is what their life is based on. Your beliefs influence just about everything that you do in your life, and each and every major decision in your life is influenced by it. It is one and the same.


-_-

Most ig'nant thing I've read all day.

But it's only a few hours in, we've still got time. :p

[I_AM_THE_BLOB]

I say that you should be able to chose not to go to church at any age. Though I personal don't have faith in any relgion, but if I had kid I probley whould try to get him to go church as to influnce good morals in head. Awhile ago I found this web site that comments on the bible that make you think (Link (http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm)) (I just hade to quote this from the site) The Back Parts of God
"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend..." (Exodus 33:11)

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts; but my face shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:20-23)

Comment
In verse 11 we read that God spoke to Moses, face-to-face. Yet in seeming contradiction, we have later God telling Moses that he cannot see His face. Instead, God decides to show Moses his back parts! "Back parts" of course serves as a euphemism for "ass". In other words, God here says to Moses "thou shalt see my ass."

I'll leave it to the readers to ponder the possible sexual orientation of God as he shows Moses his bare bottom.

You know I whould say that he just shows his back but, they add parts what other parts are on the back of your body?

Beside everone know relgion don't exist, we are all pluged into the Matrix after all.
>.>
<.<

[Teh~GD]

Doug, you are so wrong. What I am saying isn't coming from my 7th grade teacher. And you say that the only way to get to heaven is christianity? what about the billions of other people in the world? And you say all humans discriminate against any one different, but does that make it right?

[Doug05257]

Doug, you are so wrong. What I am saying isn't coming from my 7th grade teacher. And you say that the only way to get to heaven is christianity? what about the billions of other people in the world? And you say all humans discriminate against any one different, but does that make it right?
Goddamnit, if you're going to try and redeem yourself after your crappy bull####-filled post, don't try to do it like ^that^.

Try again. This time hit on the points that matter, not on your 7th grade teacher.

And as for the bolded part... READ MY EFFING POST NOOB.

[Teh~GD]

No. I am serious. What about the Islams and Jews that live a very good lives? They don't go to heaven because they are not in your religon? And I have looked up evolution myself. It is just common sense. You told me not to listen to my 7th grade teacher. But what about you just listening to your pastor? People should be more open minded, and not think that God only chooses people on what religon they go to, not how good of a life they live. And back to the topic, if the kids do not believe in it with all their heart, they shouldn't be there. They are wasting time if they sit in church, not believing what they are hearing.

Ok. They say the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus into your heart. What about the native americans that lived before the europeans came? They never heard of jesus. Does that mean they go to hell? They could have been very good people, but according to christianity, they did not accept jesus, thus they burn in hell. This applies to everyone that has not heard of jesus. Do they all go to hell?

[Doug05257]

It's human nature to discriminate against those who are not like you. Incorrect behavior, yes. But then, doesn't that tie back into the old Adam and Eve story with man now being 'inherently evil'? Hmm?


And no religion is right, eh? No one is right? What makes you think that you, out of all the people in the world, are right?

I'll damn well bet that your answer is the same as everyone else's - faith.

So what makes your faith better than everyone else's faith? Truth?

Okay then. Prove it.

__________________________________________________ ______


You done reading that again? ALL OF IT?

Good. Now let me continue.

No. I am serious. What about the Islams and Jews that live a very good lives? They don't go to heaven because they are not in your religon?
They don't go to heaven because they're not right. Now the Jews are a little different than the rest, and have a big role in the future, according to my religion. I believe that my religion is the correct choice. But in the end, only one way will be the right way. Whether that's my way or not is an entirely different matter.

And I have looked up evolution myself. It is just common sense.
Erm... how about explaining it to us in a nutshell, just for kicks and giggles, if you understand it so well. I can assure you that I know virtually all of the intricate details of the theory.

And God forbid you reply with "Well if you already know then why do I need to tell you". Because then you're acting like my little sister when she was 5. You don't want to act like a five year old girl do you? So don't do that.
You told me not to listen to my 7th grade teacher. But what about you just listening to your pastor?
I don't just listen to the reverend, and that's a big difference between you and I. You sit in class and take tests and are forced to regurgitate information as it is presented to you. I memorize passages and follow other parts of the religion because I choose to. In addition, your science teacher and the reverend are speaking upon two completely different topics. Research the limitations of science sometime when you're bored.

Oh yeah. And could you please state what grade you are in and what age you are? And just so it's fair, I'll let you in on a tad bit of a secret: I'm 18 and in second semester of college.

People should be more open minded, and not think that God only chooses people on what religon they go to, not how good of a life they live.First of all, your hippie "OMG OPEN-MINDED IZ TEH R0X0R" bullcrap ain't going to help you in this debate. Because do you actually know what you're promoting when you say "open-minded"? You're actually saying that you want everyone to just 'accept' all your bull#### and 'accept' that every religion is right. That everyone gets to make up their own little religion and no matter what it is, it's right. That's not open minded, that's effing stupid. If that's not what you're getting at, let's have you explain it then, eh?

And back to the topic, if the kids do not believe in it with all their heart, they shouldn't be there. They are wasting time if they sit in church, not believing what they are hearing.
You can't really believe in anything 'with all your heart' without being extensively exposed to it first, now can you?

[ripht|CoC]

-sigh-

Doug, I love how you follow the path of Christ. So humble and slow to anger and patient. You're the splitting ####ing image of Jesus! Good to see that you're so ultimately Christian that you can judge everyone else. xP That's how it works, right?


And Jesus spaketh unto his disciples: Go out into the masses and be arrogant. Be not respectful, for thou art correct and therefore they art wrong! Yell at them if it is required to get the point across!

You remember that passage, don't ya? ;)

[Doug05257]

-sigh-

Doug, I love how you follow the path of Christ. So humble and slow to anger and patient. You're the splitting ####ing image of Jesus! Good to see that you're so ultimately Christian that you can judge everyone else. xP That's how it works, right?


And Jesus spaketh unto his disciples: Go out into the masses and be arrogant. Be not respectful, for thou art correct and therefore they art wrong! Yell at them if it is required to get the point across!

You remember that passage, don't ya? ;)
A thousand humble apologies, milord. :rolleyes:

[ripht|CoC]

Nice. An easy way to avoid actually dealing with what I said.

[Teh~GD]

__________________________________________________ ______


You done reading that again? ALL OF IT?

Good. Now let me continue.


They don't go to heaven because they're not right. Now the Jews are a little different than the rest, and have a big role in the future, according to my religion. I believe that my religion is the correct choice. But in the end, only one way will be the right way. Whether that's my way or not is an entirely different matter.


Erm... how about explaining it to us in a nutshell, just for kicks and giggles, if you understand it so well. I can assure you that I know virtually all of the intricate details of the theory.

And God forbid you reply with "Well if you already know then why do I need to tell you". Because then you're acting like my little sister when she was 5. You don't want to act like a five year old girl do you? So don't do that.

I don't just listen to the reverend, and that's a big difference between you and I. You sit in class and take tests and are forced to regurgitate information as it is presented to you. I memorize passages and follow other parts of the religion because I choose to. In addition, your science teacher and the reverend are speaking upon two completely different topics. Research the limitations of science sometime when you're bored.

Oh yeah. And could you please state what grade you are in and what age you are? And just so it's fair, I'll let you in on a tad bit of a secret: I'm 18 and in second semester of college.

First of all, your hippie "OMG OPEN-MINDED IZ TEH R0X0R" bullcrap ain't going to help you in this debate. Because do you actually know what you're promoting when you say "open-minded"? You're actually saying that you want everyone to just 'accept' all your bull#### and 'accept' that every religion is right. That everyone gets to make up their own little religion and no matter what it is, it's right. That's not open minded, that's effing stupid. If that's not what you're getting at, let's have you explain it then, eh?


You can't really believe in anything 'with all your heart' without being extensively exposed to it first, now can you?

Ok. Listen up. You say that people who live lives as well, or even better, then christians, but they go to hell because they chose a different religon. What about all the Native Americans that didn't know of jesus because they lived before the europeans invaded america? They go to hell? And evolution is this: animals have traits. The animials that have the traits that help them survive live on and pass their traits on to their offspring. The weaker ones who possess traits that are not beneficial die off. They do not pass on their genes. After a while the animals have completly different traits then their ancestors. This only works if you believe that the earth is billions, not thousands, of years old. I believe that the Earth is billions of years old for many reasons. For one look at Africa and South America. They fit exactly together. You can tell that the continents move at a very slow rate, so it must have taken years and years to get this far. And what I meant as way of life is that the quality of their lives, not their religon. And what is up with your constant flaming? You don't have anything else to say? Here is an example of why I said no flaming: "hippie "OMG OPEN-MINDED IZ TEH R0X0R" bullcrap" What did that prove? What I meant by open-mindedness is not just sitting and taking only the bible, and everything else is wrong. Please explain to me what happens to the people who have never heard of jesus go to hell? And also why do other people who live better lives then you go to hell just because you accepted "jesus" in your life?

PS. good job avoiding what ripht said, as with everyone else!

[bexxx]

how about kids shud never go to church its just a fake hypocritical pile of $h!t

[Teh~GD]

Now, don't just say that. I disagree. You have to have proof on what you are saying, not to just attack them. You are just as bad as doug over here...(stares at sig) what was I saying again?

[ripht|CoC]

how about kids shud never go to church its just a fake hypocritical pile of $h!t

See? Here's a perfect example of evolution! This person is never going to get laid. Therefore, she/he will never propagate. Therefore, her/his genes will die and we will all be better for it.

Huzzah!

[Teh~GD]

lol. And here is another proof of evolution. Let's say you are sick with a virus. You use antibiotics to kill 99% of them. That one percent which is immune to your antibiotics multiplies, and you are sick with a virus that has the trait of immunity. It works a lot faster then other organisms because they reproduce at such a fast rate.

[Tanktunker]

How is that proof?
That could just as well be mutation, not evolution.

[ripht|CoC]

Well, evolution IS mutation... just in a long-term sense.

[Teh~GD]

No. It is not a mutation. That one virus cell has an immunity to the antibodies, and guess what? he lives and reproduces (asexually) and all the ones not immune die off.

PS. A mutation is a part of evolution, it changes the DNA of an animal. If the mutation is good, it lives and reproduces. If it is bad, it dies and does not reproduce.)

PSS. Ripht posted while I was typing my post, and he and I say the same thing.

[stone11375]

In some places? I'd thats the case in all places. I really doubt parents just raise their kids saying hey, you can follow the Barney religion if you want, I don't care.

That Barney religion does make some good points.

[Teh~GD]

...despite the fact that they all killed themselves. Religon, like anything, can be taken to far. That is what happened when he took religon to far.

[mattz1010]

See? Here's a perfect example of evolution! This person is never going to get laid. Therefore, she/he will never propagate. Therefore, her/his genes will die and we will all be better for it.

Huzzah!

Isn't this natural selection? :P

[ripht|CoC]

Isn't this natural selection? :P

...Which is the basis for evolution. -gives you a gold star-

[mattz1010]

Dude, a gold star? OMG.

Evolution, on a very micro scale...

Natural disasters are Mother Nature's way of saying, "Damnit, why didn't Natural Selection do his job?"

=D

[Teh~GD]

What happenend to that doug guy? He stopped posting here...?

[Solean]

You're thinking wrong. I think children should decide whether or not they even want to go to church as soon as they reach age 13. Then they get to quit whenever they want.

[Teh~GD]

No. If they don't like it when the are 12, 10, or even 3, they shouldn't have to go there. Like a lot of people stated, you only get the benefit of going to "heaven" if you believe with all your heart that it is true. If you don't, there isn't really any reason for you to go there.

[MercuryLime]

You're thinking wrong. I think children should decide whether or not they even want to go to church as soon as they reach age 13. Then they get to quit whenever they want.

Thanks, that's the type of I answers I was trying to get.

Everybody else, kind of off topic. I'm not asking which religion is RIGHT.

For the record, from experiencing both sides, it's MUCH easier to defend evolution than intelligent design. In fact, we just had that debate in Biology class a few days ago. Since evolution instinctively feels right to me, I use the evidence as proof evolution is how we got here. But then, religious people do the same.

OFFTOPIC NOTE: To anybody else out there that's studied evolution, what do you guys think of Lamarck? Before I learned about the specifics of evolution, I always thought it worked more like his theory - instead of random mutations (99% of which are bad), I would think organisms would adapt to their environment and pass those adaptions down to the next generation. Too bad it doesn't work that way. Any organism that could do that would have an immense advantage over creatures evolving using normal evolution.

[Teh~GD]

I think both are in use. Natural selection weeds out the bad, and random mutations, at a very low rate, may be beneficial and help survive.

But evolution is way more plausible then natural design. You are short-changing our Creator when you say His creatures can not adapt to their enviroment.

[Doug05257]

No. If they don't like it when the are 12, 10, or even 3, they shouldn't have to go there. Like a lot of people stated, you only get the benefit of going to "heaven" if you believe with all your heart that it is true. If you don't, there isn't really any reason for you to go there.

A ten or twelve year old doesn't know what they want, other than to sit in front of the Sega Genesis all day. (Or at least that's how it was when I was 10. And 12. And 15. And so on. And still. LoL.) Anyhow, a lot of the time they just don't know what's good for them. Take school for example. If you live in the United States, I know that you are forced to go there if you're under 16. Then you can drop out. Even then, the vast majority of people stay. Why? Because unlike a 12 or 14 year old, the majority of them can now see the benefit that a high school diploma provides. Before that, they just hated going there, and didn't give half a crap about the future.

Now, you don't technically need school in your life, and you don't technically need religion to live one. However, if you do not experience a lot of something, you don't really know if you like it or not. Sometimes, people (especially children) set in their minds that they absolutely hate something, and subconsciously vow to hate it. Say... perhaps school, in your case? But they are forced to go and eventually see the silver lining.



Anyhow, none of this section of the debate matters one. teeny. tiny. bit.

Because until you are eighteen years of age, you do exactly as your parents tell you. If they tell you to go to school, church, your room, or hell, you go. After 18, you can either support yourself (which is a decent challenge, by the way) or you can still do as they tell you.

[Homer43]

All I can say is, Mormonism ftw.

[Doug05257]

All I can say is, Mormonism ftw.
LoL. You really don't want to hear my rant on how Mormonism is the most retarded 'religion' in the world, eh? Honestly I don't feel like typing it now, so you're saved from ownage... for now..

[MercuryLime]

I think both are in use. Natural selection weeds out the bad, and random mutations, at a very low rate (http://new.trafficsector.com/smb/ezula_proc.php?uid=337422&ezid=123015&elid=10556&db=0#do_redir), may be beneficial and help survive.

Natural selection breeding out the bad is the point of evolution. It's not that the creatures adapt to the environment, it's that a random genetic mutation occurs that causes benefits (helping said creature in natural selection). In essence, they are part of the same system. Lamarck said something totally different.

But evolution is way more plausible then natural design (http://new.trafficsector.com/smb/ezula_proc.php?uid=337422&ezid=122645&elid=10186&db=0#do_redir). You are short-changing our Creator when you say His creatures can not adapt to their enviroment.

That's the thing. Organisms CAN adapt to their environment. They just don't pass any "adaptions" down to their offspring.. genetically anyway. They can always share their knowlege in person.

[Solean]

You are short-changing our Creator when you say His creatures can not pass their Adaptions down to their offspring.

How do you explain genetic color-blindness, etc?

[MercuryLime]

You are short-changing our Creator when you say His creatures can not pass (http://new.trafficsector.com/smb/ezula_proc.php?uid=337422&ezid=123788&elid=10715&db=0#do_redir) their Adaptions down to their offspring.

How do you explain genetic color-blindness, etc?

I haven't looked it up, but I would guess it's a recessive trait - and that whatever genes governing the ability to see color were not given by either parent.

I have read about the evolution of the eye, though. Maybe the eye didn't originally see in color, and it was a mutation that led to that?

[Doug05257]

I haven't looked it up, but I would guess it's a recessive trait - and that whatever genes governing the ability to see color were not given by either parent.

I have read about the evolution of the eye, though. Maybe the eye didn't originally see in color, and it was a mutation that led to that?
Dude, no.

Just think about it.... who will be better able to detect food and predators... ones that only see in monochrome, or ones that can detect color?

[mattz1010]

Skywire (was that your old username?), I think there's something wrong with your computer...

Whenever you quote someone, ad links appear in them [Unless you're adding them intentionally. But the links don't look too much like you're adding them :P]

[Kevim]

Because until you are eighteen years of age, you do exactly as your parents tell you. If they tell you to go to school, church, your room, or hell, you go. After 18, you can either support yourself (which is a decent challenge, by the way) or you can still do as they tell you.

18? Don't you think that that is a little bit high? I mean of course children (8, 10, most of the time 12) can't make their own descicions, but I would geuss by the time a "child" is 15 or so they would be able to make their own descisions.

[Doug05257]

18? Don't you think that that is a little bit high? I mean of course children (8, 10, most of the time 12) can't make their own descicions, but I would geuss by the time a "child" is 15 or so they would be able to make their own descisions.
I ain't making the laws. And no, 18 ain't high. 21 is high. Just like the drinking age.

You aren't as old as you think you are when you're fifteen.

[Kevim]

I ain't making the laws. And no, 18 ain't high. 21 is high. Just like the drinking age.

You aren't as old as you think you are when you're fifteen.

I'm just saying I'm 13 and I have already made lots of important desicions in my life by my own, I would think an average person of 15 could make most of their own descisions.

[mattz1010]

I don't understand why we need an age limit as to whether we can or can't go.
Maturity to make a decision doesn't happen at set ages.

Except that 15 should be 16 in this vote, even though I chose no.

[Doug05257]

The vote is quite biased, due to the age of the members of this forum. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

[mattz1010]

Then again, people would most likely vote for 15 if they're near that age, but only if they have to currently go to church. If they don't, or never had to, they're more likely to vote for age doesn't matter.

Then again, it only applies if you...
Er, I forgot where I was going...

*smacks head into keyboard* ;_;

[Homer43]

LoL. You really don't want to hear my rant on how Mormonism is the most retarded 'religion' in the world, eh? Honestly I don't feel like typing it now, so you're saved from ownage... for now..

Ah, my good sir, you shall see at the last day.

[Teh~GD]

Well, I am not condemning the mormon religon, but it let's you save your ancestors. You could have Hitler for a great grandfather, and you can save him with the mormon religon. It also was created, like all other religons, saying that God chose them to tell the world his TRUE words. That is why I say no religon is right. As hot as girls from Utah are, I do not beleive in that, or any other religon. Come on, God does not sit and say, "Ok, you lived a very good life. unfortunetly, you are from religon X and I only allow religon Y." God does not work like a club.

[Doug05257]

Well, I am not condemning the mormon religon, but it let's you save your ancestors. You could have Hitler for a great grandfather, and you can save him with the mormon religon. It also was created, like all other religons, saying that God chose them to tell the world his TRUE words. That is why I say no religon is right. As hot as girls from Utah are, I do not beleive in that, or any other religon. Come on, God does not sit and say, "Ok, you lived a very good life. unfortunetly, you are from religon X and I only allow religon Y." God does not work like a club.
So just because a lot of people just say that, you won't believe in any of them? Do you really have to be so emo, so "I gotta be so much more different than everyone else or I fail"? Damn. Get a hold of yourself and think it through. Your reasoning isn't what it should be.


BTW, girls from Utah look as good as this Southern gal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/doug05257/hick.jpg

[Hex]

At 10 years old, I was finally able to present to my parents a legitimate arguement that because I didn't believe in god, that I should be able to choose whether or not to have to go.

Though I didn't like going to [insert place of worship here], Its good for a child to at least get a sense about it first.

Lol, [insert religion here] School was so funny... I was so ADD that I would constantly doodle in all the books, so eventually the teacher just gave up, handed me a blank book, and said to just do all my doodles in there. I never payed attention again and all the other kids were so jealous... lawl

[MercuryLime]

Dude, no.

Just think about it.... who will be better able to detect food and predators... ones that only see in monochrome, or ones that can detect color?

Who would be able to detect food and predators? Ones that can see monochrome, or ones that CAN'T SEE AT ALL? Obviously, humans are not the most perfect evolutionary beings possible. We're STILL evolving.


Skywire (was that your old username?), I think there's something wrong with your computer...

Whenever you quote someone, ad links appear in them [Unless you're adding them intentionally. But the links don't look too much like you're adding them :P]


Only happens when I'm at home on the bad, buggy adware computer. sorry. :blush:

Yeah, I used to be Skywire. BTW, are you the same mattz1010 on the PsiPog forums?

[Teh~GD]

Doug, you are the one that is so naive. I am not doing this to be different. My beliefs are based on common sense. It is not common sense that our creator says that the religon you choose is as important as the quality of life that you live. OK. Here is christianity. "the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus in your heart." What about all the native americans who have never heard of them in their life because they lived before the europeans came to America? What about all the people of different religons? They go to hell because they did not accept jesus, even though they lived as good of a life otherwise? Can you picture God going : "Ok, christians over here. You guys, you never heard of him in your life. To hell for you! You Islams and buddhists over there. You lived good lives, but you didn't accept jesus in your hearts. To hell for you!" Do you think our creator would be like that?

Here is my view on heaven and hell. Heaven is an incentive plan for you to join their religon. "If you don't join, you will have eternal suffering!" Heaven is the perks of joining a religon: "only people of this religon go to heaven! You don't want to go to hell now, do you?" All religons are for the most part, the same. They all have a basis on which to live your life, which I do not disagree with. They all are encouraged to help your fellow man, which I also do not disagree with. What I do disagree with is the "hell for you, heaven for me" train of thought. There is a God, or Creator, or whatever you want to call him. You have to be stupid to believe otherwise. Look at how our universe works. Look at our body. This is not some random occurance. But our creator isn't playing favorites. If there is a heaven, ( I don't believe there is) it would be based on the quality of the persons life.

[ripht|CoC]

What about all the native americans who have never heard of them in their life because they lived before the europeans came to America? (...) They go to hell because they did not accept jesus, even though they lived as good of a life otherwise?

Actually, those who never heard the Gospel are thought to go to Purgatory, not hell. Just thought I'd point that out. The rest of your argument is secure, though. An Islam is brought up FROM BIRTH hearing over and over again that his religion is right, the same as many Christians. Yet he's expected to bend over backwards as soon as he hears the name Jesus? It's ridiculous.

It's the same as expecting Christians to immediately convert to Islam when they hear about it. Ain't. Gonna. Happen. ;)


Do you think our creator would be like that?

Pathetic as it is, most Christians do.

Most Christians believe in a God who acts like a petulant spoiled child, and then they excuse his #######ry by saying, "Oh, we can't judge him. He's omnipotent."

Ridiculous. If God can't be judged by the same morals that he uses to judge us, then #### him. He's not worth it.

[Homer43]

Well, I am not condemning the mormon religon, but it let's you save your ancestors. You could have Hitler for a great grandfather, and you can save him with the mormon religon. It also was created, like all other religons, saying that God chose them to tell the world his TRUE words. That is why I say no religon is right. As hot as girls from Utah are, I do not beleive in that, or any other religon. Come on, God does not sit and say, "Ok, you lived a very good life. unfortunetly, you are from religon X and I only allow religon Y." God does not work like a club.

Okay, first of all, no Hitler won't be saved because he was an evil man who abided by no commandments of God whatsoever and didn't even live a good life by any means. You are referring to baptisms for the dead I am sure, and although that is a step in allowing our ancestors to enter the Celestial Kingdom, they of course had to have lived a good life through any knowledge they knew of God.

Next, you know nothing about the first vision or the restoration of the church, so don't act like you do now.

Last, we believe that anyone can enter the Celestial Kingdom as long as they have lived according to the gospel that they knew. If they are members of say, Catholocism, and they abided by those rules and lifestyles and have striven to become as righteous as they could be according to the rules that they were given, they'll be saved. This is also where your Native American ploy comes into play.

[mattz1010]

Only happens when I'm at home on the bad, buggy adware computer. sorry. :blush:

Yeah, I used to be Skywire. BTW, are you the same mattz1010 on the PsiPog forums?

I am the only one with that username. Ever. =D

The closest I've ever seen was a mattz2005 (here), and a rave1010 (AA forums).

Say hi to my alternate personality on there, ML. :P

I think if you scan around the Comp Tech forum, you should be able to get some good adware removers. =D

Once the other computer un-breakifies, then I'll go grab something off that computer to post in this thread..Until then, be tense

[h00pla]

All I can say is, Mormonism ftw.

-agrees- wewt!


It is not common sense that our creator says that the religon you choose is as important as the quality of life that you live.

because we're all as smart as God.

Okay, first of all, no Hitler won't be saved because he was an evil man who abided by no commandments of God whatsoever and didn't even live a good life by any means. You are referring to baptisms for the dead I am sure, and although that is a step in allowing our ancestors to enter the Celestial Kingdom, they of course had to have lived a good life through any knowledge they knew of God.

Next, you know nothing about the first vision or the restoration of the church, so don't act like you do now.

Last, we believe that anyone can enter the Celestial Kingdom as long as they have lived according to the gospel that they knew. If they are members of say, Catholocism, and they abided by those rules and lifestyles and have striven to become as righteous as they could be according to the rules that they were given, they'll be saved. This is also where your Native American ploy comes into play.

you forgot Spirit Paradise/Prison. where you can still progess (I think, my doctrine gets a little messed up sometimes) but it's harder.

as to the original question, until you get out from your parent's roof. while you depend on them you better do what they say.

[Homer43]

-agrees- wewt!




because we're all as smart as God.



you forgot Spirit Paradise/Prison. where you can still progess (I think, my doctrine gets a little messed up sometimes) but it's harder.

as to the original question, until you get out from your parent's roof. while you depend on them you better do what they say.

I forgot nothing, I just didn't add it in :)

Yes, Spirit Paradise/Prison is where you get taught the gospel that you didn't get the chance to learn while on Earth.

[h00pla]

good, my mind didn't just suddenly force something false into my thought process

[ripht|CoC]

-notices people avoiding my posts like wildfire-

-laughs at you-

[h00pla]

-didn't even notice the post-

a thousand apologies

Most Christians believe in a God who acts like a petulant spoiled child, and then they excuse his #######ry by saying, "Oh, we can't judge him. He's omnipotent."


then again our "excusing" him is like an ant excusing a human when he trods on the ant hill, it'll happen whether or not the human is excused

[ripht|CoC]

then again our "excusing" him is like an ant excusing a human when he trods on the ant hill, it'll happen whether or not the human is excused


xDxDxD

Way to prove that your God isn't an #######.

Well done.

[Teh~GD]

Ok. You say that as long as they obeyed the rules of their lives, they can still go. Is it fair that a person lived as a monk, and didn't live up to their very high standerds, but a hippie who lived at a commune lived up to the hippy standerds, the hippie goes to heaven and the monk doesn't?


You said "because we are as smart as god." We don't have to be as smart as god to understand common sense.

Look. All the religous people rely on faith. All faith is the opposite of common sense. When someone brings up things, like I do, you just say "oh you have to have faith" And from now on anyone who wants to post here should read the thread in it's entirety, you can see all that I have posted.

[h00pla]

@ripht: I didn't feel like arguing, I was in a justifying mood

@grey: our common sense is limited to our knowledge. for all we know extinguishing all life on the planet could be common sense to an omnipotent being. and as for faith being the opposite of common sense. say I need to jump across a bottomless pit and the only way I will make it is if my father catches me. I think common sense tells me that faith in my father makes perfect sense

and not all religious people rely on faith. that is merely the beginning, after faith come belief, and then comes knowledge.

[ripht|CoC]

@ripht: I didn't feel like arguing, I was in a justifying mood


-still thinks it's funny-

http://www.nothingnice.com/comics/20050801.gif (http://www.nothingnice.com/)

[Teh~GD]

Did anyone notice that everyone that disagrees with me border-line flames me? They never adress the issues. They just use blind faith against my concerns.

[h00pla]

meh, I'd probably find it funny ffrom your POV too

Did anyone notice that everyone that disagrees with me border-line flames me? They never adress the issues. They just use blind faith against my concerns.

because showing how faith can apply to common sense completely skirted the issue of how faith is the opposite of common sense

[ripht|CoC]

Did anyone notice that everyone that disagrees with me border-line flames me? They never adress the issues. They just use blind faith against my concerns.

-shrugs-

Frankly, you haven't made very many compelling arguments. Not trying to be a jerkmonkey, just sayin'.

Other than the whole, "I choose not to believe in the God you believe in because he is an elitist dirtbag."

But that doesn't mean they can't choose to believe in him if they want.

All religion is a matter of choice, not common sense.

[Teh~GD]

@ripht: I didn't feel like arguing, I was in a justifying mood

@grey: our common sense is limited to our knowledge. for all we know extinguishing all life on the planet could be common sense to an omnipotent being. and as for faith being the opposite of common sense. say I need to jump across a bottomless pit and the only way I will make it is if my father catches me. I think common sense tells me that faith in my father makes perfect sense

and not all religious people rely on faith. that is merely the beginning, after faith come belief, and then comes knowledge.

Don't you mean after faith comes dissillusionment, then comes biased opinion. How many of your churches have shown other religons in detail? How many of them give other points of view? You say you go for knowledge, but how can you get knowledge from only one side of the story?

[ripht|CoC]

Don't you mean after faith comes dissillusionment, then comes biased opinion. How many of your churches have shown other religons in detail? How many of them give other points of view? You say you go for knowledge, but how can you get knowledge from only one side of the story?

Same reason most people watch Fox News.

Most people choose to be underinformed idiots.

C'est la vie.

[h00pla]

and how many churches have you lived?

[Teh~GD]

Here is everything for all you guys to lazy to read the whole thread. And if it matters, I went to 2 baptist, one methodist, and have seen jewish barwhatemacallit.

I personally have some problems with christianity, and all religon. First and foremost, they think that God will only let christians into heaven. I believe that if there was a heaven. God would judge people on the way they live their life, not on what religon they practice. Second, they won't accept evolution. There is proof in all of life. Look at snakes. They have bones in their body that resemble legs. And look at us. Our fetuses look very much alike. Our appendix is an organ we do not use, but we have it. Other creatures have it, and use it. Isn't it more fantastic that God created creatures that adapt to their enviroment?

Christians, like other religons, attack many people that aren't them. Other people of different religons and people who disagree with their religon are chastized. And women and homosexuals and native americans have all been heavily attacked by them. Women couldn't vote till a few years ago, as native americans. Alaskan natives were hurt by missionarys. They were hit if they spoke their native tongue, and were told to get rid of their culture and adopt the christian culture.

My view on theology is 1. that God created us. 2. There is not a heaven or hell. Heaven was created by christians to encourage people to join their religon, and hell was created to scare people into joining. 3. No religon is right. When it comes down to it, I believe in one part of the bible. I use it in all parts of my life. I use the Golden Rule: treat others as you would like people to treat you. That really covers everything. Please do not flame me, these are my opinions. And if you have something to say, put some thought before posting. Don't just say "Oh you are going to hell for blasphamy (sic)"

Doug, you are so wrong. What I am saying isn't coming from my 7th grade teacher. And you say that the only way to get to heaven is christianity? what about the billions of other people in the world? And you say all humans discriminate against any one different, but does that make it right?

No. I am serious. What about the Islams and Jews that live a very good lives? They don't go to heaven because they are not in your religon? And I have looked up evolution myself. It is just common sense. You told me not to listen to my 7th grade teacher. But what about you just listening to your pastor? People should be more open minded, and not think that God only chooses people on what religon they go to, not how good of a life they live. And back to the topic, if the kids do not believe in it with all their heart, they shouldn't be there. They are wasting time if they sit in church, not believing what they are hearing.

Ok. They say the only way to get to heaven is to accept jesus into your heart. What about the native americans that lived before the europeans came? They never heard of jesus. Does that mean they go to hell? They could have been very good people, but according to christianity, they did not accept jesus, thus they burn in hell. This applies to everyone that has not heard of jesus. Do they all go to hell?
__________________
Ok. Listen up. You say that people who live lives as well, or even better, then christians, but they go to hell because they chose a different religon. What about all the Native Americans that didn't know of jesus because they lived before the europeans invaded america? They go to hell? And evolution is this: animals have traits. The animials that have the traits that help them survive live on and pass their traits on to their offspring. The weaker ones who possess traits that are not beneficial die off. They do not pass on their genes. After a while the animals have completly different traits then their ancestors. This only works if you believe that the earth is billions, not thousands, of years old. I believe that the Earth is billions of years old for many reasons. For one look at Africa and South America. They fit exactly together. You can tell that the continents move at a very slow rate, so it must have taken years and years to get this far. And what I meant as way of life is that the quality of their lives, not their religon. And what is up with your constant flaming? You don't have anything else to say? Here is an example of why I said no flaming: "hippie "OMG OPEN-MINDED IZ TEH R0X0R" bullcrap" What did that prove? What I meant by open-mindedness is not just sitting and taking only the bible, and everything else is wrong. Please explain to me what happens to the people who have never heard of jesus go to hell? And also why do other people who live better lives then you go to hell just because you accepted "jesus" in your life?

PS. good job avoiding what ripht said, as with everyone else!

lol. And here is another proof of evolution. Let's say you are sick with a virus. You use antibiotics to kill 99% of them. That one percent which is immune to your antibiotics multiplies, and you are sick with a virus that has the trait of immunity. It works a lot faster then other organisms because they reproduce at such a fast rate.

No. It is not a mutation. That one virus cell has an immunity to the antibodies, and guess what? he lives and reproduces (asexually) and all the ones not immune die off.

PS. A mutation is a part of evolution, it changes the DNA of an animal. If the mutation is good, it lives and reproduces. If it is bad, it dies and does not reproduce.)

No. If they don't like it when the are 12, 10, or even 3, they shouldn't have to go there. Like a lot of people stated, you only get the benefit of going to "heaven" if you believe with all your heart that it is true. If you don't, there isn't really any reason for you to go there.

I think both are in use. Natural selection weeds out the bad, and random mutations, at a very low rate, may be beneficial and help survive.

But evolution is way more plausible then natural design. You are short-changing our Creator when you say His creatures can not adapt to their enviroment.

[ripht|CoC]

Yes, because people who are too lazy to read are definitely going to read that.

Seems logical to me.

[h00pla]

I believe that if there was a heaven. God would judge people on the way they live their life, not on what religon they practice

The main problem with that is you're trying to find something to fit you, not fitting with a religion

Second, they won't accept evolution

That's grouping a very large group of people together, and as I saw somewhere earlier, most believe that evolution exists, it is just guided by god

When it comes down to it, I believe in one part of the bible.

And the rest exists merely as filler? That might be where a part of your problem is. See 1st repsonse

No. I am serious. What about the Islams and Jews that live a very good lives? They don't go to heaven because they are not in your religon? And I have looked up evolution myself. It is just common sense. You told me not to listen to my 7th grade teacher. But what about you just listening to your pastor? People should be more open minded, and not think that God only chooses people on what religon they go to, not how good of a life they live. And back to the topic, if the kids do not believe in it with all their heart, they shouldn't be there. They are wasting time if they sit in church, not believing what they are hearing.


They all have a chance in the Spirit Pardise/Prison

Let's say you are sick with a virus. You use antibiotics to kill 99% of them.

It is impossible at this time to kill a virus with anything other than an immune system

and I'd like to point out that you are saying all CHRISTIANS believe that. All baptists, lutherans, protestants, catholics, mormons, etc. believe the same exact thing.

[Kevim]

Pathetic as it is, most Christians do.

Most Christians believe in a God who acts like a petulant spoiled child, and then they excuse his #######ry by saying, "Oh, we can't judge him. He's omnipotent."

Ridiculous. If God can't be judged by the same morals that he uses to judge us, then #### him. He's not worth it.
I've got a question. Did the bible ever say god was a nice person? Did the bible ever say god was just? I don't think it ever did...

[Blixinator]

I just came back from church. I ******* hate church. I'm a damn atheist raised in a house full of Catholics.

[Kevim]

I just came back from church. I ******* hate church. I'm a damn atheist raised in a house full of Catholics.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Teh~GD]

The main problem with that is you're trying to find something to fit you, not fitting with a religion



That's grouping a very large group of people together, and as I saw somewhere earlier, most believe that evolution exists, it is just guided by god



And the rest exists merely as filler? That might be where a part of your problem is. See 1st repsonse



They all have a chance in the Spirit Pardise/Prison



It is impossible at this time to kill a virus with anything other than an immune system

and I'd like to point out that you are saying all CHRISTIANS believe that. All baptists, lutherans, protestants, catholics, mormons, etc. believe the same exact thing.

(takes deep breath) OK. What is wrong with me to find something to fit me? I am not in ANY religon. None of them make sense. No, no denomination says that evolution occurs. They say "god made us on the sixth day and that is final". And the golden rule is the only truth in the bible. To treat others the way you would want to be treated is the basis of all the religons. What I don't agree with is the fact that "You are of religon x, god only likes religon y. to hell for you!" I meant whatever antibiotics kill, it doesn't matter if it is a virus or whatever, that is proof of evolution. And you brought up all those denominations. There is more crap to deal with. Baptists:no drinking or you go to hell. Catholics have cerimonial drinking of wine! You can't even agree with yourselves! What I am saying is that all religons go off and condemn every other religon, and do you think God works that way? Seriously. Go beyond your old beliefs and just think. Your main problem is that you are too narrowminded. BIBLE OR NOTHING BIBLE OR NOTHING! is what you and everyone that is against me is saying.

Anyway, "religon is like the easter bunny and santa claus, only your parents don't tell you that they aren't real when you get older."

[Kevim]

What I am saying is that all religons go off and condemn every other religon, and do you think God works that way?

I am terribly sorry that I just quoted a little peice of your post to argue with. The rest is fine by me, but I just have to stand up for myself.

Buddhism does not condemn every other religion. Buddhism actually encourages the following of other religions as long as they revolve around good morals, and do not "force" you to do anything bad or evil.

[Teh~GD]

I am sorry for the buddishm thing. I just looked it up.
the four noble truths
1. Life is suffering;
2. Suffering is due to attachment;

3. Attachment can be overcome;

4. There is a path for accomplishing this.

The Eightfold Path

1. Right view is the true understanding of the four noble truths.

2. Right aspiration is the true desire to free oneself from attachment, ignorance, and hatefulness.

These two are referred to as prajña, or wisdom.

3. Right speech involves abstaining from lying, gossiping, or hurtful talk.

4. Right action involves abstaining from hurtful behaviors, such as killing, stealing, and careless sex.

5. Right livelihood means making your living in such a way as to avoid dishonesty and hurting others, including animals.

These three are refered to as shila, or morality.

6. Right effort is a matter of exerting oneself in regards to the content of one's mind: Bad qualities should be abandoned and prevented from arising again; Good qualities should be enacted and nurtured.

7. Right mindfulness is the focusing of one's attention on one's body, feelings, thoughts, and consciousness in such a way as to overcome craving, hatred, and ignorance.

8. Right concentration is meditating in such a way as to progressively realize a true understanding of imperfection, impermanence, and non-separateness.


It has some good morals, and does not condemn other religons. This is the only religon I have no problem with.

I respect you Kevim for standing up for it.

[Doug05257]

(takes deep breath) OK. What is wrong with me to find something to fit me? I am not in ANY religon. None of them make sense. No, no denomination says that evolution occurs. They say "god made us on the sixth day and that is final". And the golden rule is the only truth in the bible. To treat others the way you would want to be treated is the basis of all the religons. What I don't agree with is the fact that "You are of religon x, god only likes religon y. to hell for you!" I meant whatever antibiotics kill, it doesn't matter if it is a virus or whatever, that is proof of evolution. And you brought up all those denominations. There is more crap to deal with. Baptists:no drinking or you go to hell. Catholics have cerimonial drinking of wine! You can't even agree with yourselves! What I am saying is that all religons go off and condemn every other religon, and do you think God works that way? Seriously. Go beyond your old beliefs and just think. Your main problem is that you are too narrowminded. BIBLE OR NOTHING BIBLE OR NOTHING! is what you and everyone that is against me is saying.

Anyway, "religon is like the easter bunny and santa claus, only your parents don't tell you that they aren't real when you get older."
You are #####ing about us not reading your posts, while you completely ignore our points. Thanks bud.

And just so you know, the term Christian really isn't specific enough for what you're poorly attempting to attack. The reason there are so many variations in the religion demonstrates that we do, in fact, disagree with each other. That's actually one of the strong points of Christianity at this time. However, it is a little divisive, because we do have the separate groups composed of Catholicism and Protestantism. Protestantism is broken up into many groups, even after that main division. In summary, yes there are many different interpretations, which cause slight division between groups and even individuals. However, the core of Christianity is the same, and that's what binds us all together as Christians.

And by the way, it's pretty damn ignorant of you to say that the Golden rule is the only truth in the Bible. Hell, even historical scholars have used the Bible to document historical events. Their interpretations (especially those around the time of Christ) coincide with other topic-specific historical documents and records. And so if anything, the Bible could be considered to be somewhat of a history textbook, in terms of the events around that time in the area.
What is wrong with me to find something to fit me?
If religion is a set of clothes, you ain't the tailor. You can't just pull something out of your ass and take it as truth. If you do that with anything else in this world, you fail miserably, no? So what makes you think that religion is so much different?

I meant whatever antibiotics kill, it doesn't matter if it is a virus or whatever, that is proof of evolution.
So, if I just grab some handy dandy mold out of the science hall here on campus, and derive some penicillin from it, I've proven evolution?

Your main problem is that you are too narrowminded.
That's our problem, eh? LoL.

Leave your shell and look at our point of view before you accuse us of not doing the same.

[mattz1010]

He's not fighting against religion, as religion can be a very good way to stay mentally stable during a time of crisis.

I think he's just arguing against fundamentalist douchebags, and hipocrasy within religion.

But, I think Buddhism is a damn sweet religion ;) It encourages you to use rational thought, rather than impulse, to accept others as they are, and not to condemn them for not being like you.

[Teh~GD]

yes it does. The bacterias that doesn't get killed survive and reproduces, and now the strain of bacteria now has a trait.

I have looked at your point of view. I wasted 5 years of my life in church. I am not narrowminded, I am open to others opinions. I don't have to agree with them, but I do listen to them. I have listened to what you have said. Just because I have disagreed with you does not mean I didn't listen to you. I said the golden rule is the only truth in the bible. I said this because 1. you won't go to heaven because you accepted jesus. 2. evolution does occur. 3. people don't go to hell just because of other religons, if there is a hell. 4. There is no proof of a "flood" and there are millions of species of animals out there, and a lot more that we haven't even seen yet. 5. You really think that people lived for hundreds of years then went down to a lower age? What about the fact that we have all these things that help us live longer? Christianity does not fit my beliefs. So should I go to church? I don't agree with it, so you said I should suck it up and go there? Like I said, I spent five years going to church. I didn't like it during any of the five years. Christianity can do good. It can teach people to live a good life. but I don't agree with their view on evolution and God picks only christians to go to heaven. There are other minor quibles, but they aren't worth mentioning.

[ripht|CoC]

I've got a question. Did the bible ever say god was a nice person? Did the bible ever say god was just? I don't think it ever did...


That's not my point. Religion should be a choice. If it's not a choice, then how can you be held accountable for it? Just being raised into a religion is ridiculous. If you can't weight the different religions on an even scale and CHOOSE between them, then you're not using your God-granted free will. You're just being a tool of your parents.


Now, we've established that religion should be a choice. It's also been amply established that a "correct" religion can in no way be found by the rules of logic. They are based in the supernatural. This isn't to say that the rules of logic should not be applied to them, it simply means that "proving" one or another is impossible. Therefore, the choice of religion can NOT be based on one being true and another being false. Why? Because there is no way to know if one is true or another is false.


Therefore, we have to base our choice of religion on our own morals and beliefs. We have to choose one that "fits" us. ;) We have to choose one with which we agree. One that we can honorably stand up for, and in which we can have faith.

Which is why I keep pointing out that the God most Christians believe in is a complete asshat. It's not a matter of whether or not their religion is correct. We've established that it's impossible to know which religion is telling the "truth". Instead, it's a matter of whether or not I want to believe. I prefer not to believe that my creator is a petty, childish, selfish, elitist, arrogant, and immature ****monger. That's just me. If that's what they choose to believe in, they're welcome to it.

But when they try to proselytize to me, I tend to just laugh in their faces. What a pathetic belief system.


(Also, it's worth noting that I'm not talking about ALL Christians. BUT, if you're getting offended over what I've said then I am talking about you.)

[h00pla]

I respect you Kevim for standing up for it.

But of course the ones sticking up for a religion that you don't like a lower than the mud on your shoes right?

1. you won't go to heaven because you accepted jesus. 2. evolution does occur. 3. people don't go to hell just because of other religons, if there is a hell. 4. There is no proof of a "flood" and there are millions of species of animals out there, and a lot more that we haven't even seen yet. 5. You really think that people lived for hundreds of years then went down to a lower age? What about the fact that we have all these things that help us live longer?

Of course you're right One who knows more than God the Almighty. As for the rest, I don't know much about proof of the flood, but you're right about #1. You need to work to get into heaven "Faith without works is dead." #2 I think has been answered many times yet you still bring it up. Evolution isn't mentioned in the bible because no one came up with the theory! Just like none of our histories mention things like electricity when it existed in the form of lightning because no one knew about it. Imagine you don't know about evolution, you see the earth being created (obviously sped up for us because of our short attention spans) all you see is a series of animals living and dying, each one slightly different, until you get man. Obviously God had some hand in this (since he's the one showing you) and nudged everything where it should be. #3: correct, but there aare different levels of heaven and to attain the highest you need to follow the correct "process." and #5: when it's just you and one other you're darn sure they lived longer. It was needed. someone was spouting "balancing everything out" in this thread or something. Any way, with fewer humans they would live longer so that they could reproduce more, as time went on and more existed they wouldn't live as long so as to control the population.

God picks only christians to go to heaven

yeah, go to earth live how God told you too and you can get back to live with God. part of that is following his rules.

Religion should be a choice. If it's not a choice, then how can you be held accountable for it?

It is. You go you get into heaven. You don't you don't make it to heaven.

Why? Because there is no way to know if one is true or another is false.


pray about it sincerely. god should tell you.

[ripht|CoC]

pray about it sincerely. god should tell you.

-_-

I'm sure that when all the Muslims of the world pray to their god, he says, "Hey! Hey! Go join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints! I was totally wrong! They were right!"

Everyone with a religion thinks that they are right. Everyone with a religion thinks that their religion is the one correct religion. Everyone with a religion thinks that God (or whomever) speaks to them and guides them. And yet all of us aren't Mormons.

There's a world outside of your little protective bubble of chosen ignorance. Go experience it sometime, and then come back and talk to me. Until then, your presumptuous arrogance only betrays your childish misunderstanding of your religion or any other.

[h00pla]

And yet all of us aren't Mormons.
;)

There's a world outside of your little protective bubble of chosen ignorance

Since I couldn't have explored it and found what I already believed to be true or anything like that

[thebeard]

Well this is all very interesting and it seems everyone has a strong opinion on this matter. here is wat I believe.
I was sent to a christian school my whole life. I was taught the Bible every day. i was led to the Lord in the first grade. we never went to church until i was in the 6th grade. now i go every week. i have examined my own heart and found that what the bible teaches is the truth. the whole book. it is a hard book to learn and study. its supposed to be that way. but the most important things; those regarding heaven and hell are simple to understand.
to go to heaven, u dont have to ever study the bible but without the truths it teaches u cannot get to heaven.
In the beggining God created the heaven and the earth and man and nature. he set up the laws of the universe that govern everything. he made man in his image: that is with a soul.
Man was deceived by Satan, a once glorious being who through his own pride attemped to revolt against God and failed. God had given one rule, and Adam and Eve chose to ignore it.
God had given man paradise and we messed up. we sinned. every person sins. how many kids are taught to hit or bite or be mean or lie. no child has to be taught these things. thesame way men arent taught to be cruel or mean. they are part of our sin nature. God had intended for man to come to heaven, but heaven being perfect and God, a perfect being, cannot allow sin to enter heaven.
God however gave us redemtion. It takes a blood sacrifice to cover sin.He promised to send his Son to us for that sacrifice. Judaism is still looking for that Son. however he already came.
Jesus, Gods son, came as a child. Jesus came to earth and minister to thousands then he gave his life up. he gave his life up: volantarily. He died so u could go to heaven. can u imagine any earthly leader giving up his life. his sacrifice was the final blood sacrifice. trust in that action and nothing else will get u to heaven. every creature was born knowing there is one true God in heaven. Satan doesnt want every person to go to heaven: so he tries, as he has always, done to decieve men into false thinking.
church is a place of learning and teaching. it is not a building it is the group of beleivers who worship together. children are taught the truths that there parents believe however the choice is up to every single person. each individual must chose for themselves wat is right. By making children go to church parents hope to limit the effect Satan has on their children. to teach the truth before some they become sucked into a lie that will end with hell.
but thechoice is still up to every person.
i can not say i am the best person and any honest christian will tell you they are the worst. the Apostle Paul said " I am cheifest among sinners." but church and the holy bible will help u to understand your life. God hears prayers and will guide.

[ripht|CoC]

Since I couldn't have explored it and found what I already believed to be true or anything like that

Your certainly could have. As I said, you've chosen not to do so.

(And yes, I know that you meant to imply that you have. I find such an implication laughable. You don't even understand your own religion, let alone anyone else's.)

[h00pla]

That's because one religion in confusing enough to understand. After living it for 17 years I still learn things I haven't before.

[Teh~GD]

But of course the ones sticking up for a religion that you don't like a lower than the mud on your shoes right?



Of course you're right One who knows more than God the Almighty. As for the rest, I don't know much about proof of the flood, but you're right about #1. You need to work to get into heaven "Faith without works is dead." #2 I think has been answered many times yet you still bring it up. Evolution isn't mentioned in the bible because no one came up with the theory! Just like none of our histories mention things like electricity when it existed in the form of lightning because no one knew about it. Imagine you don't know about evolution, you see the earth being created (obviously sped up for us because of our short attention spans) all you see is a series of animals living and dying, each one slightly different, until you get man. Obviously God had some hand in this (since he's the one showing you) and nudged everything where it should be. #3: correct, but there aare different levels of heaven and to attain the highest you need to follow the correct "process." and #5: when it's just you and one other you're darn sure they lived longer. It was needed. someone was spouting "balancing everything out" in this thread or something. Any way, with fewer humans they would live longer so that they could reproduce more, as time went on and more existed they wouldn't live as long so as to control the population.



yeah, go to earth live how God told you too and you can get back to live with God. part of that is following his rules.



It is. You go you get into heaven. You don't you don't make it to heaven.



pray about it sincerely. god should tell you.

1. I never said I knew more then our Creator. And you keep on mentioning God here, but how do you know it just wasn't men that came up with it? There is no proof that our creator went down and did all these things you say he did. You say, "accept jesus or you go to hell!" You are just using blind faith instead of common sense. "Pray about it sincerely. God should tell you" Oh. God only talks to christians now? And You think christians are better then everyone else. Do not lie, your whole view on the earth is to live a "christian" life to go to heaven. You also think "only christians go to heaven" so you think you are better then everyone else. And guess what your fellow christians have done:

1. Missionaries that went up to Alaska ruined the native way of life. They were told their view on spirits was wrong, and scared them with talks of hellfire and brimstone. Once the missionarries got their attention, they started to get ugly. They hit children that spoke their native tongue. They tried to get them to forget their old culture. I would know. It was my relatives that this was done to.

2. The dark ages were caused mostly by the church. The church called any book besides the bible to be heathen, so illiteracy went way up.

3. I don't have to mention all the cults that have arisen from christianity.
Christianity was the reason Hitler killed all of the Jews, 4. and do I have to mention the crusades? Killing people in the name of God? 5. Also the differences between the republicians and democrats are mostly because of religon. 6. And there are all those tv shows where they are asking for money, "in the name of god" and they get a lot of it for themselves. Really, is this what you want to be a part of?

[FOOD]

Dont bring the curch in to it, its corrupt.

[Kevim]

I must debate this. This was probably one of your worsts posts ever grey_daze.

1. I never said I knew more then our Creator. And you keep on mentioning God here, but how do you know it just wasn't men that came up with it? There is no proof that our creator went down and did all these things you say he did. You say, "accept jesus or you go to hell!" You are just using blind faith instead of common sense. "Pray about it sincerely. God should tell you" Oh. God only talks to christians now? And You think christians are better then everyone else. Do not lie, your whole view on the earth is to live a "christian" life to go to heaven. You also think "only christians go to heaven" so you think you are better then everyone else. And guess what your fellow christians have done:

You have said this many a time, come up with something new will ya?

1. Missionaries that went up to Alaska ruined the native way of life. They were told their view on spirits was wrong, and scared them with talks of hellfire and brimstone. Once the missionarries got their attention, they started to get ugly. They hit children that spoke their native tongue. They tried to get them to forget their old culture. I would know. It was my relatives that this was done to.

Stop with this native american crap and stop living in the past. Do I say America is a horrible and corrupt country just because it aloud slavery at one time? No. You act as if Christians do this today (Ocassionaly they do, but to a much, much, lesser extent). Stop worrying about history and start worrying about the present, because sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. This is one case.

2. The dark ages were caused mostly by the church. The church called any book besides the bible to be heathen, so illiteracy went way up.

The dark ages were not caused by the church. Yes, Christianity was the most popular religon in Western Culture at that time, but it was not the cause of the Dark Ages. The dark ages were caused after the Roman Empire crumbled and instead turned into many different Kingdoms that were constantly at war with each other. The war occupied so much of their time they hardy had room for anything else.

3. I don't have to mention all the cults that have arisen from christianity.


Who ever said that all cults are bad? It is just another example of religous ignorance.

Christianity was the reason Hitler killed all of the Jews

Christianity wasn't the reason Hitler killed all those Jews. There were a number of reasons Hitler killed so many Jewish people.

1. He believed they were the cause of Germany's not-so-great economy back then.
2. He was an ignorant full.
3. He was evil.
4. Out of pure hatred. It wasn't because Hitler was Christian that he killed the Jews, it was mainly the fact that they were different. All throughout history wars have been fought over religion. Why? Because people fear what they do not understand, same thing in Hitlers case, along with many other things.

and do I have to mention the crusades?

What about them?

Killing people in the name of God?

Oh no! The ancient Christians were like nearly all other religons. Once again THEY DON'T DO THAT ANYMORE! GET OVER IT! PEOPLE ARE STUPID, ESCPECIALLY BACK THEN! DO NOT JUDGE PEOPLE FOR WHAT THEIR ANSCESTORS HAVE DONE! My anscestors from just a little over a hundred years back were slave owners, am I one? No.

5. Also the differences between the republicians and democrats are mostly because of religon.

How is that bad?

6. And there are all those tv shows where they are asking for money, "in the name of god" and they get a lot of it for themselves.

Are you talking about the commercials where they ask you to send money to starving children in Africa or whatever? Because geuss what? ALMOST ALL RELIGONS HAVE A GOD THAT THEY WORSHIP AND PRAY TO. IT DOESN'T NESCISARRILY MEAN THE CHRISTIAN GOD! Even if that's what you mean, who cares? Would it make that much of a difference if they went on the commercial and said "In the name of Bob!".

Also, even with the evil in the world today, there is still more good then bad, more of these donation things are real then they are scams.

Really, is this what you want to be a part of?

Christianity is not a bad religon at all. I was once Christian. They have many very good beliefs and good morals. I can name very few major flaws in Christianity.

[h00pla]

You are just using blind faith instead of common sense.

it's hard to apply common sense as you see it to a supernatural being


Oh. God only talks to christians now?

yes, by telling you to go ASK GOD IF IT'S RIGHT I obviously meant you have to be christian to begin with. And people call me stupid.

Do not lie, your whole view on the earth is to live a "christian" life to go to heaven.

When did i ever say differently?

1. Missionaries that went up to Alaska ruined the native way of life. They were told their view on spirits was wrong, and scared them with talks of hellfire and brimstone. Once the missionarries got their attention, they started to get ugly. They hit children that spoke their native tongue. They tried to get them to forget their old culture. I would know. It was my relatives that this was done to.


1. my FELLOW christians? Do I have to bring the many different sects of christianity again. Do not lie, you refuse to even listen to one shred of what I've said.

2. I'm guessing they weren't Latter Day Saint missionaries, hence not "my fellow chrsitians"

3. My relatives went the revolutionary war, that doesn't mean I know for sure what happened.

2. The dark ages were caused mostly by the church. The church called any book besides the bible to be heathen, so illiteracy went way up.

Because that is likely to happen again. And go read #1 again and Kevim's response.

3. I don't have to mention all the cults that have arisen from christianity.

Do I not have to mention your abject stupidity then?

Christianity was the reason Hitler killed all of the Jews,

And Islam is the reason for 9/11, it doesn't all come from Christianity, but you aren't bad-mouthing allah are you?


4. and do I have to mention the crusades? Killing people in the name of God?

no, you don't have to mention it, but you did. read the previous statement


5. Also the differences between the republicians and democrats are mostly because of religon.

how very observant of you

6. And there are all those tv shows where they are asking for money, "in the name of god" and they get a lot of it for themselves. Really, is this what you want to be a part of?

what luck. I'm not part of it. and even though I know you'll ignore this, YET AGAIN. different sects. not all chrsitians are the same. I assume you think that about muslims, but it's just too much effort to see the same about christianity

And I'm sorry Kevim if i repeaed or contradicted anything you said inadvertantly, I just wanted to reply to grey

[denacioust]

Christianity was the reason Hitler killed all of the Jews


He also was an aspiring painter. His dreams were crushed by a Jew. Not to mention the fact that he was a crazy man. Don't judge an entire group of people on the acts of one man.


2. The dark ages were caused mostly by the church. The church called any book besides the bible to be heathen, so illiteracy went way up.


Didn't the dark ages happen long before the reformation?



1. I never said I knew more then our Creator. And you keep on mentioning God here, but how do you know it just wasn't men that came up with it? There is no proof that our creator went down and did all these things you say he did. You say, "accept jesus or you go to hell!" You are just using blind faith instead of common sense. "Pray about it sincerely. God should tell you" Oh. God only talks to christians now? And You think christians are better then everyone else. Do not lie, your whole view on the earth is to live a "christian" life to go to heaven. You also think "only christians go to heaven" so you think you are better then everyone else. And guess what your fellow christians have done:


That isn't one of the beliefs of Chrisitanity, had you not been so ignorant, you would know that if you lived a 'christian' life then God would forgive you for your sins and let you into heaven.



3. I don't have to mention all the cults that have arisen from christianity.


Then I don't have to mention all the good things which Christianity has brought about.

[thebeard]

To every one defending the parents right to make their kids go to church and Christianity: please dont get angry with those with other views. when i read posts on both sides i read a lot of hate and annimosity. we can not reach these people by forcing our faith on them. the tenants of the christian faith are that salvation is a free choice to any that accept it.

You say, "accept jesus or you go to hell!" You are just using blind faith instead of common sense. "Pray about it sincerely. God should tell you" Oh. God only talks to christians now? And You think christians are better then everyone else. Do not lie, your whole view on the earth is to live a "christian" life to go to heaven. You also think "only christians go to heaven" so you think you are better then everyone else. And guess what your fellow christians have done:

God talks to every man. the Holy Spirit is the part of Gods being that speaks to Christians. However the prayers of the unsaved have no basis. if u dont believe in a prayer honoring God then there is no reason to pray. i know that sounds bad but if you wont accept him and his priciples then why should he listen? if you were going through a hard time: a drug addiction: and asked for someones help house and they said just follow these rules and i will help u in any way. then ignore the rules smoke weed or whatever and still ask for help, there is no reason for them to help you. the lord will help people he will save them from hell offer his strength in times of weakness, wisdom in times of uncertainty, health in times of sickness. food in times of poverty. stability in times of change and many other things. but if u refuse his son and live in sin then why should he be obligated to give you any thing.

LIving a Christin life. Living any life will not get u too heaven: only Faith in his death on the cross can get you to heaven. Christians are to be set apart from this world. We are supposed to (but rarely do) live our lives separate from the world because the love of Christ compells us to do so. the Holy Spirit will implore us to do what is right.

i think many of the false views of christianity and the church in general are based on Catholic doctorines. Catholics are taught to live a good life and follow what the church says in order to get to heaven. the sacriment confessionals and penance are ways of buying heaven. God a Holy God cannot be bribed. the only way to heaven is trust in his Sons blood sacrifice.
Martin Luther (a minister of the Cathoic Church) studied the Scriptures and found the errors of the churches doctorine and started the Protestant Reformation. i believe that there are saved Catholics but many Catholics base their faith on the Church they belong to. it never says once you must obey any church to go to heaven. James said" not by works are ye saved. through faith, lest any man should boast." boasting is pride and and pride is a sin. sin cannot be allowed in heaven; therefore you cannot work your way to heaven.

The christian is to act a certain way but his actions will not get him to heaven. we are to act different not because it will get us to heaven but because its what Jesus wants. like obeying your parents. they loved you they set limiations and expectations for you not to hinder you but to protect. that is what the Christian life is truly about.

we often times live work and play right along side the unsaved with few if any distinctions seperating us from the rest. the holy spirit guides us in our actions but like a conscience the holy spirit can be ignored. often times what to us seem trivial like skipping a sunday service our neighbors will look on as hypocrisy."they want us to go to church, but see. they skip church too so why should we go?"
Christians are set on a pedastol that few can balance on. we are set up to fall down. not by man but by satan he wants us to look bad. if outwardly we look the same as every other person: there is no reason for anyone to want our faith. hence satan gets more souls to suffer with him in eternity. Satan set up this whole world system to prevent people from knowing the Savior.

[mattz1010]

Nice circular logic there.

[ripht|CoC]

it's hard to apply common sense as you see it to a supernatural being

:rolleyes: Obviously.

But I wish more of ya would start applying common sense to your own actions. ;)

[h00pla]

meh. why do that when I can just ignore everyone and live in the hills with Darc's squirrels?

[ripht|CoC]

So true... So true...

Be careful, though. They go crazy if you try to touch their nuts.

[h00pla]

just like I would if they tried to touch mine

[Teh~GD]

Ok. I did my last post because I was tired of all the constant flaming toward me. Your excuse for all this is that "it's in the past" or "every other religon did it." Well, is that how's god's chosen people act? People say, "oh it wasn't my sect so stop blaming me". Well, you guys are all christians. I said not to mention the cults because do I really need to? You guys know what those cults do. They brainwash followers and force them out of their families and everyone else who is not in the cult. And christians do think they are better then everyone else. The only reason we live, according to the bible, is to see if we live a good enough life to go to heaven. And the only way to heaven is through jesus christ. Thus all the other religons are damned to hell.

christianity isn't the only one. Islam started with muhhamid, who was a bandit. Buddhist monks originaly had an army. But since the majority of the people here are christians, I wrote on their bad behaviors.

Here is my view on theology. This mostly came from my first post in here, that most of you didn't read.

First and foremost, there is a Creator. He is not all-knowing, and he created us so we can live our lives. There is no heaven or hell. They are just there to get people to go join their religon. There is evolution and the universe is a few billion years old. I believe in the golden rule, and I believe all our problems are because we are not balanced. The problems come from having too much or too little of anything.

Here is my view on christianity. the main problem I have with it is that only christians go to heaven. Another problem I have is that christianity shoves away science, in fear of being called wrong. The another major gripe I have with christianity is that they take a lot out of your life. I don't mean they don't allow some things, like theft and killing, which is good. I mean that there is all the sunday morning and evening services, wednesday services, all the church camps and all the other things that take time out of your life. Life is too short to be spent repenting for past deeds, and instead should be spent LIVING life, getting time with your family, relaxing, and not being scared with hellfire and brimstone. The last major gripe I have is that christianity says that everything is God's doing, not yours. If you work hard enough for a promotion, you are supposed to sit and thank god for it and not have any pride in what you rightfully did. People shouldn't believe that they don't amount to nothing, and should be proud of what they have accomplished.

Christianity can help people that are in need, it can save people from living a life of deceit and harm. Christianity has used the salvation army to help when any help is needed. The only problems I have with christianity are listed above. I use the golden rule as a way of life. Before I do anything, I ask myself if that is how I wanted to be treated. With this there isn't any theft, murder, or anything else detrimental to a good lifestyle. This is the basis of most religons, and covers everything but the heaven or hell issue.

From here on out, no more attacks. If we post, it will be just on issues, not personal assualts on each other. have a good day, and don't go on here when you should be studying!:D

Grey daze765

[ripht|CoC]

grey_daze: You are arrogant and mindlessly self-righteous as the Christians in this thread. Both sides think they are somehow better than the other side. The world would be a much better place if either side would stop flapping their lips and start leading by example (as opposed to hypocrisy.)

Huzzah!

[Teh~GD]

how am I self-righteous? And you guys don't need the underscore in my name;)

[Gerbil!]

how am I self-righteous? And you guys don't need the underscore in my name;)

Lesson #1: Never talk back if you got owned by ripht l coc, you'll just make yourself look like an idiot.

Huzzah!

[Kevim]

Good lord child! Do you have any idea how much I just want to flame you right now? I'll attempt to reason with you once more, and please read this entire thread over again before posting in this thread anymore.

Ok. I did my last post because I was tired of all the constant flaming toward me.

Well you did a great job stopping that didn't ya?

Your excuse for all this is that "it's in the past" or "every other religon did it." Well, is that how's god's chosen people act?
People say, "oh it wasn't my sect so stop blaming me". Well, you guys are all christians.

Well apperently gods chosen people acted like that in the past. And once again, IT WAS IN THE PAST! Do I judge you by what your father does for a living? If your grandfather was once a rapist, do we send you to prison for it. No! Stop being so freakin' stupid! People are different, people change.

And also, don't think just because people are the "Same type" of people they act the same. One of my best friends is Gothic, while I'm a Buddhist, we look the exact same, and we are both white, yet... WE DON'T ACT ANYTHING ALIKE! People are different! That's why we are people and not toy soliders!

I said not to mention the cults because do I really need to? You guys know what those cults do. They brainwash followers and force them out of their families and everyone else who is not in the cult. And christians do think they are better then everyone else. The only reason we live, according to the bible, is to see if we live a good enough life to go to heaven. And the only way to heaven is through jesus christ. Thus all the other religons are damned to hell.

The thing with cults is, they do not force anybody to join. The most they will ever do is annoy the living crap out of you, which is not wrong legally or morally.

Also, Christians do not think they are better then everybody else, you have no factual proof that that is so. My grandmother is a very "hard-core" Christian, yet she is not ignorant and she does not think she is better then everybody else.

Well, of course that's what the bible says, they did not know any better back when Christianity was new. Please tell me, what do you want them to say? "To get to heaven be good and be nice to other people." and isn't that what pretty much all of Jesus' teachings are about. Just being nice and an overall good person? So... who says that a man who has never even heard the name Jesus, but still lives by his rules and his path can't go to heaven?

christianity isn't the only one. Islam started with muhhamid, who was a bandit. Buddhist monks originaly had an army. But since the majority of the people here are christians, I wrote on their bad behaviors.

I don't care about anything you said in this paragraph except the third sentence. Buddhist monks have never, I repeat NEVER fought in any war or have participated in any acts of violence, actually, in the entire history of Buddhism, there has been only one monk who said he would ever participate in killing another human being, and he is alive today.

It is true that Buddhist nations have fought wars before, but every single one of them had been for reasons other then religon. Please, do some research before you write about something you obviously know nothing about.

Here is my view on theology. This mostly came from my first post in here, that most of you didn't read.

It is you that must read the posts, not us.

First and foremost, there is a Creator. He is not all-knowing, and he created us so we can live our lives. There is no heaven or hell. They are just there to get people to go join their religon. There is evolution and the universe is a few billion years old. I believe in the golden rule, and I believe all our problems are because we are not balanced. The problems come from having too much or too little of anything.

I can not argue with this. Although I do not believe what you believe, this is your opinon, and argueing about it would be incredibly rude and irrelevant. Anyways, I'm going to take these next few sentences sentence-by-sentence.

the main problem I have with it is that only christians go to heaven.

I have already dicussed this, as have other people.

Another problem I have is that christianity shoves away science, in fear of being called wrong.

Once again, read previous posts. One person even quoted the Vatican. I believe it said that they do not deny the presence of evolution, the merely said that God created the soul of the man. As for heaven and hell, yes, those are most likely made up, but that was just to get other people to follow Christianity. People do not like doing "work" without getting a reward. So, they made heaven. They also made up hell so everybody would be scared of doing anything bad, which is not nesicarilly a bad thing.

The another major gripe I have with christianity is that they take a lot out of your life.I mean that there is all the sunday morning and evening services, wednesday services, all the church camps and all the other things that take time out of your life. Life is too short to be spent repenting for past deeds, and instead should be spent LIVING life, getting time with your family, relaxing, and not being scared with hellfire and brimstone.

Basically everything in life takes a lot out of it, does that make it a waste of time? No. Nobody can truely say what is a waste of time or not. Some people might think the purpose of life is to work hard and do something for the human race, thus helping create more comfort and "better" leisure time. Others believe money is pointless, and life should just be spent having fun. There are too many different veiws to be able to say what is pointless or not. Also, I belive it's more like, "You do good, you get to go to heaven!" then, "You were bad, to hell with you!".

I don't mean they don't allow some things, like theft and killing, which is good.

What?

The last major gripe I have is that christianity says that everything is God's doing, not yours. If you work hard enough for a promotion, you are supposed to sit and thank god for it and not have any pride in what you rightfully did. People shouldn't believe that they don't amount to nothing, and should be proud of what they have accomplished.

Silly person. In Christianity, God does not live your life. God does not make you happy or sad. You make yourself that. Why do you think God doesn't just get rid of Earth and send us all to heaven? Because he wants us to live our lives, Christian lives, but nonetheless lives.

Christianity can help people that are in need, it can save people from living a life of deceit and harm. Christianity has used the salvation army to help when any help is needed. The only problems I have with christianity are listed above. I use the golden rule as a way of life. Before I do anything, I ask myself if that is how I wanted to be treated. With this there isn't any theft, murder, or anything else detrimental to a good lifestyle. This is the basis of most religons, and covers everything but the heaven or hell issue..

I can not argue with this either. It is your opinion and a pretty good one too.

From here on out, no more attacks. If we post, it will be just on issues, not personal assualts on each other. have a good day, and don't go on here when you should be studying!:D

Grey daze765

Kevim.

[mattz1010]

Well apperently gods chosen people acted like that in the past. And once again, IT WAS IN THE PAST! Do I judge you by what your father does for a living? If your grandfather was once a rapist, do we send you to prison for it. No! Stop being so freakin' stupid! People are different, people change.

What if my grandfather was Hitler? Or if Bush was my father?


That's why we are people and not toy soliders!

Mob psychology. Done.
The thing with cults is, they do not [i]force anybody to join. The most they will ever do is annoy the living crap out of you, which is not wrong legally or morally.

Oh, but in the past, they did kill you and your families. Which was still illegal, but nobody either wanted to catch them, didn't care, or couldn't.
Well, of course that's what the bible says, they did not know any better back when Christianity was new. Please tell me, what do you want them to say? "To get to heaven be good and be nice to other people." and isn't that what pretty much all of Jesus' teachings are about. Just being nice and an overall good person? So... who says that a man who has never even heard the name Jesus, but still lives by his rules and his path can't go to heaven?

I say do whatever the **** you want in life. Only the law has control of you.
I don't mean they don't allow some things, like theft and killing, which is good.What?
He says the Christian religion has its good points too.
The last major gripe I have is that christianity says that everything is God's doing, not yours. If you work hard enough for a promotion, you are supposed to sit and thank god for it and not have any pride in what you rightfully did. People shouldn't believe that they don't amount to nothing, and should be proud of what they have accomplished.

Silly person. In Christianity, God does not live your life. God does not make you happy or sad. You make yourself that. Why do you think God doesn't just get rid of Earth and send us all to heaven? Because he wants us to live our lives, Christian lives, but nonetheless lives.
People just believe that "God" has helped them whenever they get a lucky break, etc. They don't have to thank "God", or anything like that, and I don't see why He did anything when you're good enough on your own to be able to get the same thing, devoid of religion.

Edit: I don't support either of you.

[Kevim]

What if my grandfather was Hitler? Or if Bush was my father?

I still wouldn't blame you for what they did.

Mob psychology. Done.

What?

Oh, but in the past, they did kill you and your families. Which was still illegal, but nobody either wanted to catch them, didn't care, or couldn't.

Are you trying to annoy me? As I said before, do not judge people for what their anscestors did in the past.

I say do whatever the **** you want in life. Only the law has control of you.

Who says the law has control of what you do? It is illegal to kill but people are still murdered. Just sometimes, you have to control what you do.

He says the Christian religion has its good points too.

Oh, I just didn't understand what he said by the way he said it. But yes, that is entirely true.

People just believe that "God" has helped them whenever they get a lucky break, etc. They don't have to thank "God", or anything like that, and I don't see why He did anything when you're good enough on your own to be able to get the same thing, devoid of religion.

Silly Christans, not even understanding God does nothing for them.

Edit: I don't support either of you.

What do you think I support? And also, what do you support?

[mattz1010]

Mob Psychology. Done.
What?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_psychology
Who says the law has control of what you do? It is illegal to kill but people are still murdered. Just sometimes, you have to control what you do.

I don't plan on going to jail any time soon. Sodomy isn't on my top list of priorities, kthx
What do you think I support? And also, what do you support?
By not supporting either of you, I mean that as I'm not on either of your sides, I'm just clearing up some things...if that counts as a 'support'.

[Doug05257]

First and foremost, there is a Creator. He is not all-knowing, and he created us so we can live our lives. There is no heaven or hell. They are just there to get people to go join their religon. There is evolution and the universe is a few billion years old. I believe in the golden rule, and I believe all our problems are because we are not balanced. The problems come from having too much or too little of anything.
Unlike Kevim, I can argue with this.

But first, I'd like to know exactly what you think happens to you after death. And yes, I'm assuming that you believe in the human soul. If not, then anyone's open to this question, I guess.

[MercuryLime]

Personally, I think the belief in both evolution and God is a very shady belief. I think it's called theistic evolution.

If you believe that God was the one who has been using evolution as the means for humanity - that it was God controlling the genes, not random mutations - then how can you say you believe in evolution? God engineered us, but everything else occurs by normal natural selection? That just doesn't work.

For people like that, you might be interested in joining the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion.

What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

[Doug05257]

Personally, I think the belief in both evolution and God is a very shady belief. I think it's called theistic evolution.

If you believe that God was the one who has been using evolution as the means for humanity - that it was God controlling the genes, not random mutations - then how can you say you believe in evolution? God engineered us, but everything else occurs by normal natural selection? That just doesn't work.

For people like that, you might be interested in joining the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion.
Normally, if you create something, you're more than capable to modify it somewhat, eh?

[Jesus is my homie]

You should go to church, no matter what your age is. I questioned the existence of God about a year ago and my life became a living hell. After going to church and accepting Jesus, my life has improved dramaticaly. Also, going to church and learning God's word is the best way to salvation.

Go to church, people.

[MercuryLime]

Normally, if you create something, you're more than capable to modify it somewhat, eh?

Yes, but a view like that has absolutely no proof to back it up. Under the same line of thinking, you could say about anything, since there's no scientific or factual way to tell.

Hence the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's just as possible as theistic evolution.

[Doug05257]

Yes, but a view like that has absolutely no proof to back it up. Under the same line of thinking, you could say about anything, since there's no scientific or factual way to tell.

Hence the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's just as possible as theistic evolution.
Must I cite some references on the limitations of science, or are you intelligent enough to look them up yourself?

[mattz1010]

Explain further how your life "became a living hell".

Because, you wouldn't have many parts of your body left, unless you were exaggerating.

[Doug05257]

Explain further how your life "became a living hell".

Because, you wouldn't have many parts of your body left, unless you were exaggerating.
Please explain to me one incident where someone said "My life became a living hell" and was serious. The people that b0d owns don't count.

[Mr.666]

I think that religion is stupid.

Why do people have "beliefs"?
Why not have "ideas"?

Its easy to change an "idea" but to change a belief is a whole new thing...

[Kevim]

^Please, please, edit that post. Somebody ( most likely me ) is going to give you a big, long, harsh explanation on why religon is good.

[mattz1010]

Please explain to me one incident where someone said "My life became a living hell" and was serious. The people that b0d owns don't count.
So we can agree he's just a moron, right?

And that...we...can...ag..

That was weird. There was some sort of vague possibility that me and Doug were going to agree on something.



Religion is good because it gives you some damn peace of mind at night >_<

[Teh~GD]

drugs can give you that same peace...

Look. There are two things that you never discuss. Religon and Politics. This is because no matter how hard you press, you can't change people's beliefs. We all agree on the fact that there is a Creator, and we all agree we should live as good of a life as we can. The only differences we have are minor, but we are blowing them out of proportion. We are all just repeating what we have said over and over again, and we are getting no where. We can't, religon is a way of life, and people take it pretty personal when you insult it. We don't know for sure on what we are attacking each other for is right or not, because we are not God. we are like fleas on a dog. We know that there is a dog, we sit and feed on him every day. But we don't know what kind of dog he is, or the reasons the dog does what he does. Happy blood-sucking!

[Doug05257]

drugs can give you that same peace...

Look. There are two things that you never discuss. Religon and Politics. This is because no matter how hard you press, you can't change people's beliefs. We all agree on the fact that there is a Creator, and we all agree we should live as good of a life as we can. The only differences we have are minor, but we are blowing them out of proportion. We are all just repeating what we have said over and over again, and we are getting no where. We can't, religon is a way of life, and people take it pretty personal when you insult it. We don't know for sure on what we are attacking each other for is right or not, because we are not God. we are like fleas on a dog. We know that there is a dog, we sit and feed on him every day. But we don't know what kind of dog he is, or the reasons the dog does what he does. Happy blood-sucking!
No. For those reasons, religion and politics should be discussed the most!



And just for the record.

You are repeating yourself over and over again. Others are simply replying to your extremely similar posts, and have been trying to get the next point out of you for pages now. Therefore, I congratulate you on being the only one I know of that can repeat himself so many different ways.

But nice parable.

[Kevim]

drugs can give you that same peace...

Look. There are two things that you never discuss. Religon and Politics. This is because no matter how hard you press, you can't change people's beliefs.

Drugs won't give you peace of mind at night...

Anyways, I think you are getting "people's" and yourself mixed up. I have changed my religous beliefs twice because of another persons wisedom.

[thebeard]

did any one even read my posts?

[Kevim]

Yes I did, Doug and mattz1010 might have too. But I'm sure nobody else did.

[STICK.FU.MASTER.]

I think that the child should experience Church for a certain period (not untill at the very least 10) and then use his/her experience to choose.

[mattz1010]

drugs can give you that same peace...

Look. There are two things that you never discuss. Religon and Politics. This is because no matter how hard you press, you can't change people's beliefs. We all agree on the fact that there is a Creator, and we all agree we should live as good of a life as we can. The only differences we have are minor, but we are blowing them out of proportion. We are all just repeating what we have said over and over again, and we are getting no where. We can't, religon is a way of life, and people take it pretty personal when you insult it. We don't know for sure on what we are attacking each other for is right or not, because we are not God. we are like fleas on a dog. We know that there is a dog, we sit and feed on him every day. But we don't know what kind of dog he is, or the reasons the dog does what he does. Happy blood-sucking!

In no goddamn way do I believe there's a creator.
Saying goddamn is just a habit, and it adds to my list of swears. =D

Btw, NON-Religion is also a way of life, and people take it pretty personal when you insult it.

Yeah. you probably just killed off the only person who will support you in an argument because you're putting words into their mouths.

[MercuryLime]

We all agree on the fact that there is a Creator

I haven't really had an opinion on you up to now, but it just went way down. I confess, if it wasn't blatantly obvious already, I do not believe there was a Creator. Random chance all the way, baby.

Must I cite some references on the limitations of science, or are you intelligent enough to look them up yourself?

I'm afraid you'll have to cite some for me.

[Doug05257]

This (http://www.cod.edu/people/faculty/fancher/Limits.htm) is a fairly decent article, albeit short. The only point I really disagree with is the definition of a god as a supernatural phenomenon, only because I define a phenomenon as an event, but that's just me.

It's 3:30 AM, so I'll leave it at one.

[Teh~GD]

So, acording to you, science can't explain God. So only men from the first century can?

[ripht|CoC]

I think that religion is stupid.

Why do people have "beliefs"?
Why not have "ideas"?

Its easy to change an "idea" but to change a belief is a whole new thing...

-_-

Thank you for completely misunderstanding an intelligent idea, plagiarizing it, and attempting to pass it off as your own, you unoriginal piece of ****. :) Kevin Smith owns you.



Religion is good because it gives you some damn peace of mind at night >_<

That is the best reason you can come up with? You want me to believe in God because it's easier?

Sorry, but I've still got a little bit of self-respect. ;-)