Private Military Contractors

[n3xus]

Mercenaries haven't really figured in any U.S. war until Iraq. The PMC's or mercenaries are not protected or condoned by the Geneva Convention and as such, have suffered more casualties than the entire coalition combined, and they are more prone to commit atrocities. The power blackwater PMC is regularly hired by the U.S. military and among government officials they have a reputation as competant fighters and are sometimes thought to be better bodyguards than U.S. troops. Any thoughts?

[DarkReality]

I think PMC's are a plague. They place themselves above the law and expect the same privileges that a soldier receives but refuse to take the same responsibilities. One only needs to look at the amounts of bad press Blackwater specifically has gotten and the way some of their employees act, pretending to be the kings of the street.

It's a mistake on part of the military to allow PMC's in Iraq. It causes unnecessary tension and doesn't exactly promote peace ("US civilians are allowed to carry weapons in my country and shoot Iraqis without repercussion? #### them!" for example).

[n3xus]

I think PMC's are a plague. They place themselves above the law and expect the same privileges that a soldier receives but refuse to take the same responsibilities. One only needs to look at the amounts of bad press Blackwater specifically has gotten and the way some of their employees act, pretending to be the kings of the street.

It's a mistake on part of the military to allow PMC's in Iraq. It causes unnecessary tension and doesn't exactly promote peace ("US civilians are allowed to carry weapons in my country and shoot Iraqis without repercussion? #### them!" for example).

I agree they shouldn't be there in the first place, however they lobby a great deal and several White House officials claimed operations in Iraq couldn't be conducted without them.

[DarkReality]

Which doesn't speak much for the supposedly best military in the world, but that's a different story.

I have no doubt of their usefulness, but they need to be controlled more. If they're to help the military by shooting bad guys, then they need to follow the same rules and be subject to the same disciplinary measures that a soldier is (as in, a trial infront of a military tribunal, not 100 pushups or going to bed without dinner).

[Blastedt]

Mercenaries? Well, they say that money is a better incentive than patriotism, but in America, here and now, that doesn't hold as much truth. Atrocities? Get them the #### out.

[Sperry]

Nothing better than a barbarian.

It's contradictory, and they're doing a lot of harm. Jennings & Rall (http://www.jenningsandrall.com) are by far the worst.

[Vagrant]

Which doesn't speak much for the supposedly best military in the world, but that's a different story.

It's actually part of Bush's administration's efforts to keep Americans from forcing him to end the war in Iraq.

See, by any normal means, the government would've started the draft by now. But thanks to PMC's, the government can avoid having to reinstate the draft. Which means normal US citizens don't care as much about the war, and are less likely to force Congress to strangle the ever-living hell out of Bush. I registered for selective service 4 or 5 months ago. You can bet my parents and friends would raise all hell if I was drafted. This isn't a war worth fighting, just many Americans don't care or realize yet.

A lot of the things Bush has done that are related to the war are trying to mitigate what the war does, so the US citizens don't pay as much attention. Tax cuts, PMC's, etc. These are things not usually associated with wars in the US.

[n3xus]

It's actually part of Bush's administration's efforts to keep Americans from forcing him to end the war in Iraq.

See, by any normal means, the government would've started the draft by now. But thanks to PMC's, the government can avoid having to reinstate the draft. Which means normal US citizens don't care as much about the war, and are less likely to force Congress to strangle the ever-living hell out of Bush. I registered for selective service 4 or 5 months ago. You can bet my parents and friends would raise all hell if I was drafted. This isn't a war worth fighting, just many Americans don't care or realize yet.

A lot of the things Bush has done that are related to the war are trying to mitigate what the war does, so the US citizens don't pay as much attention. Tax cuts, PMC's, etc. These are things not usually associated with wars in the US.

Yet there are those people who choose to be mercenaries, but its their own fault they have the highest casualty rate of all the coalition combatants.

[Woolfenstien]

I thought we were going to be talking about companies like Boeing, QinetiQ, Vosper Thornicroft, etc.

[DarkReality]

... The first post was sort of a dead giveaway, wasn't it?

[Woolfenstien]

It threw me off for about five minutes, that's for sure.

[DarkReality]

I was about to write a responding rant.

Then I started laughing uncontrollably because you cannot possibly be a more by-the-book troll than that. Incredible. I hope signing up for that was worth it :)

XD

[Mykester]

I've always wondered, how do you become a mercenary? I doubt they have their own office down the street where you can just sign up. Someone explain, please.

[Freddy]

I always thought we had merc in Vietnam, didn't we? I don't know, I heard it some years ago, from god knows who, and it seemed pretty credible as he was describing how the war was down there. Whatever.

Anyway, most, if not all, mercs used to be real soldiers. Whether they were millitary from other countries or from ours, but reguardless they know how they opperate. I'd imagine the main reasons for becoming a merc would be A) They didn't like how the millitary operated and once completed the required service they signed up for, they took their own path away from the regulations. or B) After successfully leaving service they couldn't properly come back to society and felt more comfortable around the danger of the battlefield than the average life of a civillian, but for whatever reason either the millitary wouldn't accpet them back (most likely misconduct) so they found their own way, or back to option A where they needed the battlefield but hated the millitary.

They do play a pretty important role though. There are occasions where you need somebody to be outside the law to get something done. And being tied to no country of your own, other than paid contracts which both parties would deny if caught, can solve situations that under normal circumstances can start wars.
I will agree that this can be heavily abused though. The problem with regulating it is that can cause a paper trail and this is a situation where complete discretion is best.

Also I've been playing a ####load of Mass Effect lately, and the Specters seems to be very similar to mercs with the exception of still having to reply to the council. If I hadn't been playing this game my opinion on the subject might be a bit different, but I think it still hold water.

[DarkReality]

I've always wondered, how do you become a mercenary? I doubt they have their own office down the street where you can just sign up. Someone explain, please.

I actually imagine it's quite like that. Considering that mercenaries are usually highly decorated ex-members of a special forces division, however, I don't think it'll be quite as easy signing up.

There are occasions where you need somebody to be outside the law to get something done

... I'm sorry? You know, things like these sound awesome in video games, but operating outside the very law you wish to bring to another country leads to ####ups like Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and any other of the secret CIA prisons in which foreign citizens are usually detained without reason. You can't expect to instill law and order in a region by using illegal methods and tactics. What exactly would a mercenary do in Iraq that was against the law and shouldn't have a paper trail? Perhaps torture people? Or perhaps kill civilians? It doesn't matter WHO does it, it's the wrong way to win a war and if that's the kind of methods one needs to resort to, then something's been done horribly wrong. Paying someone to do your dirty work makes it no better than actually doing the dirty work yourself.

Also, I fail to see how Specters are anything like mercenaries. They operate as secret strike teams (or individuals) for the council, circumventing laws when desired. Mercenaries are still bound by laws and operate under the same rules of engagement that soldiers operate under, the only difference being that a mercenary kills people for no professional motivation other than money (which makes them no better, from a moral standpoint, than any mafia hitman) and can say "#### no, I'm going home" whenever he wants to.

[Freddy]

... I'm sorry? You know, things like these sound awesome in video games, but operating outside the very law you wish to bring to another country leads to ####ups like Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and any other of the secret CIA prisons in which foreign citizens are usually detained without reason. You can't expect to instill law and order in a region by using illegal methods and tactics. That's a bit different in that a merc is a single person who opperates behind the scenes. The large facilities you're talking about is a different issue. BUt I agree that you can't instill law and order by using illiegal methods. That's where a person who's not tied to you or your contry comes in handy. The region you're in doesn't know where this guy came from and you can very well deny his ties to you if you have to.

What exactly would a mercenary do in Iraq that was against the law and shouldn't have a paper trail? Perhaps torture people? Or perhaps kill civilians? It doesn't matter WHO does it, it's the wrong way to win a war and if that's the kind of methods one needs to resort to, then something's been done horribly wrong. Paying someone to do your dirty work makes it no better than actually doing the dirty work yourself.
Well let's say you have it on good authority that there is a facility 5 kilometers from a villiage and that that facility is in fact responcible for buying and selling weapons to terrorist groups in the general area. The tip you got was from a man who was recently shot and killed in the last attack and can no longer provide evidence to the people who can allow you to investigate. If your men go in it will cause problems with the villiage and they will turn hostile.

Or perhaps you do have solid evidence and you know they're planning an attack on the villiage, but you know that by the time you give the message back to HQ and by the time message is deliberated and comes back, the attack would have already started. All of this can be agaisnt regulation or against local laws but a faceless man tied to no country can go in and either get solid evidence or at least distract or disturb operations to stall and get the hell out. He'll get paid for what he did and move on.

It doesn't necessarily needs be a case of killing innocents, but as I've said I know this can be abused and #### does happen. I know it's not right, whether it works out for the greater good or he was a dick and didn't give a #### and did it his own way. Doing things like that is wrong but I believe there are instances where doing things the wrong way can be a better alternative than to go by the book.

Also, I fail to see how Specters are anything like mercenaries. They operate as secret strike teams (or individuals) for the council, circumventing laws when desired. Mercenaries are still bound by laws and operate under the same rules of engagement that soldiers operate under, the only difference being that a mercenary kills people for no professional motivation other than money (which makes them no better, from a moral standpoint, than any mafia hitman) and can say "#### no, I'm going home" whenever he wants to.
Maybe it's the way I've been playing. I've been kinda taking everyone out and not taking any #### from my superiors. Surprisingly I'm constantly still being called to for more assignments. Hell I've acted like a mafia hitman in a couple cases already and always get paid for my asignments, even when I'm supposed to keep someone alive that doesn't make it. And with the exception of the main missions, you can go "#### no, I'm going home" to any assignment you want. But then... what fun would that be. =P

[DarkReality]

I think you may be taking the romantic notion of a lone wolf doing nasty things to help the universe a bit TOO seriously.

I suggest something a bit more grisly than Mass Effect for a while :p

[Karl]

Man, I hate Talon Company.

[Freddy]

I think you may be taking the romantic notion of a lone wolf doing nasty things to help the universe a bit TOO seriously.

I suggest something a bit more grisly than Mass Effect for a while :p

Hey you! You leave my wonderful videogame world out of this. It kicks the #### out of the real world. Even when it's trying to be realistic it's still better.

Says something about where we live though. Gotta go make a fake world based on ours, but with out all the #### in it.
>____>

[Matt]

Man, I hate Talon Company.
Those mercs will take any contract the other mercs wont. Those heartless bastards.

[Chimpy]

Me too. They always catch me when I fast travel and when I gun them down I find a note on one of them which talks about there being a hit on me for being some shining knight in white armour.

They're a waste of ammo, if you ask me.



But seriously. I didn't even know PMCs existed.. I hardly see how lawful this is, as I don't REALLY see any difference between them and the mafia? Sure, they work for the army, but I know for a fact that the mafia have helped out local areas during crisis in exchange for money or at the very least as a 'favour'.

[poguemahon]

Here's a comparison of the Military, and PMCs:

Military: Government ordained, trains and sends people to war.

PMCs: Civilians, generally. Most have military experience of some sort, and can be funded by any government, so long as the PMC agrees to the terms.

The unfortunate part about this kind of situation is the mercenary has to operate outside of the law. The enemy won't follow the law, so why should he be blown up because of it?

Key differences are an atrocity in the eyes of the average American citizen cannot be commited by people under employ of the government (the US Military), but can be committed by a civilian group employed by that same government. The PMCs make decisions based on the possible outcomes, just like any soldier would. If children die, it's warfare. It isn't meant to be pretty.

[Defective]

I have not heard anything of mercenaries (why would I though?) I have heard of Blackwater though, haven't they committed crimes over in Iraq and such?

[poguemahon]

Blackwater is a mercenary company, or "Private Military Contractor."

A few Blackwater employees screwed up, yes.